Limited Battery Capacity, Short Range, High Purchase Cost means the EV revolution may face a natural death sooner.. .

K

KasEV

Banned
Joined
Apr 10, 2020
Messages
509
Reaction score
260
Points
113
Location
Manchester
.
Hi Folks,
Having bought an EV at the start of this year I have began to question the logic of EVs and look at issues surrounding EVs with a more open mind. I am now becoming worried that EVs cause as much harm to the environment as ICE or even more. When more people become fully aware of the harm EVs cause, the EV revolution will stop.
Just thought will start this rather controversial thread to see what our members views are. Feel free to contribute.
Let's start with the EV battery for example.
Is it true that the harm caused by just the production of a 44 kWh battery only is worse than that caused by driving a standard 1500cc ICE for 10 years?
 
I read study somewhere but can't recall by whom that, I think, concluded there is an environmental cost to battery production, but over the life of a vehicle compared to ICE it was less harmful to the environment (might be wrong, it was a while ago). My concern is the mining of the ocean floor to get to the chemicals needed for batteries - as that's mostly out of site, you can bet the impact on the immeidate environment will be horrendous, but not only that the sludge that's created will drift and harm other areas (coral is of particular concern). This really worries me. So yes, EVs are not the magic bullet we'd all want them to be. Perhaps the new hydrogen powered engines may come to the fore, the technology there seems to be moving forward at a pace.

I also correct people who drive EVs and say their vehicle is "zero emmssion". It's not - it generates rubber particles from the tyres and dust from the brakes which are all released into the environment (and likely the food chain). Been saying that too early adopters for years!
 
@ARealHuman
You are completely right. The worry is that the premises on which that type of research is based has shifted significantly. Modern ICE are now less polluting but the mining methods of lithium, cobalt and nickel have not improved. In fact in many areas mining these rare earth metals has become increasingly toxic and out of control. Especially in the "war thrown" regions of Africa where the bulk of these metals are mined.
Also it turns out recycling of old batteries from current EVs is not as straightforward as previously thought. It now looks very much like the issue of batteries alone tilts the environmental argument against EVs.
Then comes the issue of particles from tyres which will be 10 times or more worse with EVs because of their weight.
Considering just these two issues it looks like EV 0 vs ICE 2
Are there other opinions?
Please feel free to join in.
 
@ging353
You are right. People with personalities and attitudes that cause them to abuse and insult others should really get a life and stop writing their insults here. If one has nothing to say on the issue being discussed then all one shows by insulting others is their own stupidity.
We are all here to help inform each other about EVs. Insults have no place here.
This attitude of insulting others gets us nowhere and promotes lack of knowledge.
As the saying goes.......
"For lack of knowledge.. people perish. (Bible)
 
It really annoys me when all some people want to do is find the worst in everything these days. I bought an MG ZS EV in March because I was sick of damaging the planet with fumes and paying extortionate prices for fuel. I love driving my electric car and it puts a smile on my face every time I do.
I went shopping the other day on one of the hottest days of the year and sitting at red traffic lights with the window open I was being choked to death by the car next to me pumping out acrid diesel fumes into the atmosphere. Don't tell me that an electric car is doing more damage to the planet than that.
 
@Chrispydoc
No problems. Just a bit of light "punch up". Unfortunately there are some who can never see the big picture everything is about I this I that. Things should be about '' we / us "
No one is being negative about anything rather we are all trying to enlighten each other for the best.
Going back to the issue,
I hear Elon Musk (Tesla) has become so sensitive to this issue of the havoc rare earth mineral mining is causing that he is trying to go into some sort of single supply arrangement with Glencore the miners which on the surface will allow Tesla to claim all their battery metal are ethical but will result in economic crisis and even possible wars in the poverty-stricken communities where these minerals are mined. The potential economic and social distraction that transition from ICE to EV may cause is something that we should be all aware of so as to influence at least the social debate on this issue and if possible the economic and political debate as well.
Unfortunately it looks like because of greed, corruption and certain attitudes we are potentially heading for wars and devastation this time not in poor countries that produce oil but in even poorer countries that produce rare earth metals.
Share price in Glencore was up 2.5% on London stock exchange this afternoon while inflation is some of the communities where Glencore mine our battery minerals is over 200% and most of the population live far below the poverty line.
@Chrispydoc if we have learnt anything in recent times it is that just by discussing issues in the social/public domain in a free and frank manner progress is achieved towards a better understanding of issues and better ways of resolving them. At is all we are doing here. Trying to enlighten each other about all issues concerning EV's without resorting to abuse.
 
Last edited:
@MEH,
Please do not insult others because of their faith or religion we do not do that on this forum. I not a Jain and not a Monk. If you think insulting me personally is your best contribution to this thread then be free to do so but do not insult others for what I have written.
 
I've yet to own an EV, but they are certainly on the face of it less harmful to (not better for) the environment. Burying your head in the sand and saying "get a life" is ignorant. You claim to want to protect the planet @ging535 and are doing your bit certianly with an EV, but there are issues to contend with than by simply ignoring the adverse effect these vehicles can have.
 
@ARealHuman
Very well said. Absolutely true.
Folks,
It is very interesting how we can all be self righteous and say we have taken a positive step by buying an EV.
This reminds me of the sort of talk that was about in the early days of asbestos when it was literally the material that will bring about a construction revolution and will make construction cheap "safe" and affordable. Well we all know what that led to in the end. Decades after we are still living with the aftermath.
The issue with EV is in some way similar to that of asbestos. Now science is more mature and knowledge broader so people are saying we need to look more closely at the issue. It is not a matter of diesel and petrol fumes being eliminated so problem solved. It's also about the significantly higher rates of highly toxic particles EV generate because of their weight. We do not have to sit deaf and dumb until people start to die of diseases due to such particles like people did in the case asbestos. We have to light up the issue now and hopefully in the near future we will all have contributed to a solution before it gets worse.
As for the distraction of forest and habitats, drilling for oil is an angel compared to mining rare earth metals. The one thing that oil has thought us is that if one is removing from the earth a finite resource, then one should do it in an intelligent and sustainable manner if not it will run out and cause significant environmental damage on the way. The debate now is to light up this issue in relation to rare earth mineral mining otherwise the devastation it will cause will be worse than anything oil and gas has done.
 
KasEV said:
.
Hi Folks,
Having bought an EV at the start of this year I have began to question the logic of EVs and look at issues surrounding EVs with a more open mind. I am now becoming worried that EVs cause as much harm to the environment as ICE or even more. When more people become fully aware of the harm EVs cause, the EV revolution will stop.
Just thought will start this rather controversial thread to see what our mmember'sviews are. Feel free to contribute.
Let's start with the EV battery for example.
Is it true that the harm caused by just the production of a 44 kWh battery only is worse than that caused by driving a standard 1500cc ICE for 10 years?
Click to expand...
Of cause it may well be, but someone who does 200 miles a week @around £7 to me, I, to be honest, didn't buy an EV for the planet. I read somewhere running an EV is worse for the planet than driving a range rover
 
Last edited:
Hi All,

I think the general view of people buying an electric car is to save the environment. Now I am probably going to get flack for this but the environment has NOTHING to do why I personally bought an electric car.

When I was 60 we thought it would be nice to celebrate the event with a Holiday in Las Vegas (nearly 6 years ago). While I knew about Electric Cars I always dismissed them for being too expensive and not for any of the other usual reasons that people seemed to dismiss them for example, range, battery life etc etc.

Whilst there this vehicle came out of a Hotel and just drove past in almost perfect silence, yes!, it was the first time I actually heard (or is that "not heard") an electric car, it was a Tesla if you are wondering. As a 50s child I suppose I associated electric cars with milk floats, how wrong was I.

So my interest was piqued (hope I spelt it right), and I started thinking about buying one and unfortunately nearly 4 years later I thought they were still too expensive. It was not until I bought the petrol MG ZS (1Ltr Auto) in Jun 19 that once again my interest was re-ignited with the salesman stating "you know there is an Electric MG ZS coming out soon" but once again the price was a bit too steep for me. However as soon as I heard about the first 1000 buyers incentive I put down my £500 deposit and picked up my car in Nov 19.

So why did I want an Electric Car, see below:-

a. Fast.
b Quiet.
c. Cheap to run.
d. Cheap to maintain.
e. More reliable as there is fewer parts to go wrong, I could sprout out an exhaustive lists of ICE parts that an EV hasn't got that could go wrong, but I would be teaching most of you to suck eggs.
f. My normal daily mileage is about 10-20 miles and I only very occasionally go further afield.
g. I am lucky to have a job where the Electricity is included (not free) but for the money I pay it does not matter HOW MUCH I use as I have no meter and my Home Charger is fed off that source so in effect free electricity!!! (The main reason why I bought an Electric Car).

I accept that when I leave this position that I will be paying for the electricity but it will still be far cheaper than Petrol or Diesel I would hope and I will probably be gone before the Government think of some way to hit EV users to claw back the lost Petrol/Diesel tax revenue.

As for EVS being more environmentally friendly than ICE cars then (discounting the ins/out of production of batterys which depending on what you read is still better than ICE cars), then I think you have to concentrate on the no-emissions produced by the drivetrain and the answer is undoubtedly yes as proved by the massive drops in pollution levels ALL over the major cities of the world during the worst of the lockdown.

However I think EVs with battery packs should only be viewed as a stop gap measure and the Hydrogen Fuel Cell is the way forward but with ONLY 13 Hydrogen Fuel Stations in the UK there is very few people who will take this up and they are even more expensive then BEVs. So if Mr Government's over the world are serious about they environment (and I would argue they are not) then start building Hydrogen filling stations in every Town/City and the Arterial Road Network, but they won't because who will pay for it, so I think BEVs will be here a lot longer than what you think because there is no doubt in my mind that even with the production concerns of the Battery Packs it is the atmosphere that benefits from the lack of toxic fumes kicked out by ICE cars especially in inner Cities .

In 2035 when the sale of ICE cars is prohibited does the Government think that perfectly good ICE cars on the road will suddenly be replaced by BEV,s, I don't think so as there is millions of people who can't afford the cars they are running now and couldn't even think of a new car, so they (ICE cars) will be around for many years after 2035.

Frank
 
@Frank
Thanks for your contribution and writing so frankly.
There is no right or wrong viewpoint on this issue.
In fact most BEV Boffins will surely agree with the main thrust of your contribution which is that
1.people move onto BEVs for many reasons, not only environment
2.BEVs should be considered a transitional phase to a hydrogen economy.
3.The transition will last very long as ICE will be around for several decades more before a clear competition between BEVs and Hydrogen cells begins.
You are right. That how things seem to be heading.
The concern is will we do more harm with such a transition particularly if we continue to have ICE for several more years together with BEVs both with no long term future but with a high pollution burden?.
... If yes, then are there simple mitigating factors that we could do to help knowing that not all pro-environmental ideas are actually of significant benefit?
For example, the solar water heating panels which one sees as single small size solar units on town houses in inner city areas. These units produce hot water to about 56 Celsius only in summer and are completely useless in winter. They require pumps which must be on 24/7 and the power used for these pumps is from the national grid. The end result is that these water heating solar units consume more electricity / energy than it would have required to produce the same amount of hot water by a modern combi boiler.
The switch to BEVs is seen by some like these solar water heating units.
Taken in isolation it looks good but probably looked at comprehensively and holistically is worse.
I must praise those members who have BEVs and also have electricity generating solar panels +/- storage batteries and have complete or almost 100% electricity independence. I think such members are doing the environment Good definitely.
I am not sure one if one does any good with EVs alone.
I get the fact that smog disappeared from cities and towns during the lockdown. Yes older vehicles pollute badly with exhaust fumes but a large part of this disappearance of smog was also because factories, businesses were shut and coal powered electricity production was at its lowest ever in the modern era worldwide.
In fact some say if we continued producing electricity the way we do now and replaced very single vehicle on the road with a BEV then our smog problem will be 10 times worse and in addition there would be significant shortage of electricity.
The game charger for BEVs therefore is not BEV for sake of BEV but improvement in electric power production.
The argument therefore is given the limitations, cost, ethical issues and problems of disposal of batteries, a quicker transition to another fuel(hydrogen) that is even safer and cheaper and eliminates the colossal issue of batteries is therefore very likely and this may be why companies like Ford until this year had not bothered to come into the BEV market. Does this really mean, the BEV market is likely to be short lived?.... Well no
There are analysts who claim BEVs are here to stay because hydrogen is very far from being safe and freely available. Plus the general public have rightly or wrongly bought into the idea that BEVs are good.
Then there is the issue of Elon Musk.
Elon Musk (Tesla) keeps hinting to all who bother to follow that Tesla may have cracked the battery production issue by finding a way of switching to solid state batteries which will give a range of 800 to 1000 miles per charge and 1million miles life time range.
If this happens then whether it is beneficial or detrimental to the environment will not matter anymore. All the oil and Gas companies will switch overnight to electricity production and the pollution will continue not only from the BEVs producing toxic particles because of their weight but also from gas and oil power plants/ generators and booster stations that will be required worldwide to meet the electricity demand for BEV charging. The public will be happier that it is not their BEVs exhaust that is producing the pollution and the power companies will just quibble amongst themselves as to who is greenest.
Most consumers will however go for the cheapest electricity whether it is green or not as electricity prices shoot up even night time prices.
What ever your reason for buying your BEV or even if you do not have a BEV yet let's know your opinion. It was excellent reading what @Frank wrote. What are your thoughts on this issue.
 
Just a few facts and comments to ponder over.
These are not my personal thoughts as such. They are mainly from the pro EV site autoexpress.co.uk....
I think they express a balanced view and highlight some of the solutions to battery production and charging etc

1.Concerns need to be addressed over the environmental and humanitarian impact of battery production. The Committee of Climate Change warned last year that if the UK’s 31.5 million cars were to be replaced by EVs by 2050, the process would demand almost twice the current annual global supply of cobalt. Multiple this by all the countries in the world with many more cars than UK then ask how much of the world would be devastated to produce enough cobalt for all the batteries?
Roughly 60 per cent of the world’s cobalt comes from the Democratic Republic of Congo – one of the most politically unstable countries on Earth – and, of that, 20 to 40 per cent comes from ‘artisanal’ mines, where the metal is dug out by hand, often by child labour, in unregulated conditions.
Poor African Children loose their lives daily digging with bare hands while we go about congratulating ourselves that we have done a good thing by buying a product that contains the cobalt they were digging for to their death. Is this ethical?

2.Some, manufacturers are looking at cutting the amount of cobalt in their batteries. Elon Musk, for instance, has promised the next generation of Tesla cars will not have any cobalt in their batteries at all, and all of the brands spoken to as part of a 2018 investigation (Issue 1,555) say they are committed to ethical sourcing, to ensure there are no human rights abuses in their supply chains.
So is cobalt the electric car’s dirty secret and will it remain so?
Does the EV user have a moral duty to highlight this issue?

3.Lithium-ion battery production is another issue, because it can create devastating side effects when it goes wrong – such as toxic chemical leaks, which destroy local habitats of fish and other wildlife.
Do we spare a thought for the Havoc the production of the lithium-ion HVB in our car may have caused to humans, wildlife, plants and habitats elsewhere in the world?

4.In order to improve efficiency and get as much use out of new batteries as possible, battery recycling and ‘second life’ systems are being implemented by various manufacturers. One example is Honda, which has a scheme to collect old lithium-ion and nickel-hydride batteries from 22 countries, allowing them to be reused in applications such as home energy storage.
Mercedes is another company that’s making ambitious plans to advance its battery technology. It’s currently working on a replacement for lithium
– something that will take a number of years. In the meantime, the firm is planning to use silicon anodes instead of carbon, which will reduce CO2 emissions at the point of recycling, and increase EV mileage from a single charge by around 20 per cent.
Should all EV users be involved in and be promoting battery recycling even for small domestic appliances?

5.Solid-state technology is the next big step in battery advancement. This will see the current liquid electrolytes replaced with solid electrolytes, resulting in a weight reduction and a predicted efficiency improvement of around 35 per cent. Should EV users wait passively or should we push for these changes to be brought forward?

6.Further developments in weight reduction and efficiency will come when lithium-sulphur batteries come to market in EVs, possibly in the early 2030s. After this, we might see fully compostable organic batteries, which will not only be the best environmental option, but will also allow for very fast charging times.

7.Hydrogen
Hydrogen fuel-cell power is something that a few manufacturers – including Toyota, Honda and Hyundai – have invested a lot of time and resources into developing for use in passenger cars.
Although the hydrogen as a fuel source has its merits and almost certainly has a future in large haulage vehicles, the car industry as a whole has placed its bets on direct electric power instead. This is due in no small part to concerns over the methods used to produce hydrogen, and questions over how it can be safely stored.

8.Hydrogen for charging
One way hydrogen could still be applied with fully electric cars, though, is when it comes to charging. Last year, UK-based firm called AFC Energy unveiled a new hydrogen-powered rapid charger called CH2ARGE.
The system sees tankers deliver compressed hydrogen to on-site units that use it to generate electricity. This is then stored in a 40kW battery, from which a nearby rapid charging unit can draw power.

9. Deliveries
With more people than ever choosing to do their shopping online – be it for groceries, clothes, electronics, or just about anything else – the topic of last-mile delivery (a parcel’s final trip from depot to door) has become more significant.
Typically, around half the cost of shipping a package comes in the last few miles of its journey to your home. With consumers getting used to incentives such as free shipping, and less willing to pay for postage and packaging, courier companies need ways to save MONEY. Electric vehicles could be a huge help in this regard. Unlike their petrol and diesel counterparts, they aren’t affected by the clean air zones popping up in cities all around the world.
In addition, they’re cheaper to run and require less servicing than internal combustion-engined vehicles. There are also a number of compact electric delivery vehicles on the market, which can be helpful in narrow city streets.
Should more pressure be put on the Amazon's, Uber and Tescos of this world to use only BEV delivery vans / cars and should they in turn pressure the BEV manufacturer to ethical source their batteries?

10.Charging
Another one of the big barriers to the widespread adoption of electric cars is charging. Motorists used to the splash and dash refueling of petrol and diesel cars don’t like the thought of being immobilized for hours on end while their electric cars take on a charge. And those without off-road parking wonder how they would find somewhere to top up at all. In reality most people could recharge an electric car in the huge amount of time that their current petrol model sits dormant and those lacking parking spaces could plug-in at public charging locations but if wireless charging technology could be brought to fruition even the naysayers could be brought round.
Wireless electric car charging: is EV charging without cables the future?
You park your car on pad, that can theoretically be placed under the road surface, and this charges its battery with no need to plug in. It’s the same with the charging pads for smartphones, just bigger. The technology exists and various companies are working to bring it to market. A trial for wireless charging taxis has been announced in Nottingham.
What’s a little further off is dynamic wireless charging - the ability to charge a car while it’s on the move. Tech firm Qualcomm has demonstrated a system that can charge a car from beneath the road at speeds of up to 70mph but we’re some way off getting that on the M1.
EV manufacturers and consumers alike are however somewhat adverse to frequent charging and believe the solution to the charging issue is to increase battery capacity till the average EV can comfortable travel 500 miles on a single charge.
Apparently this tech is already available and in principle when other tech is incorporated will result in cheaper cleaner batteries. So why the dragging of feet?

All said and done as EV users we are all trying to do our best with what we have but I will beg that we always that a moment to think about those whose lives are devastated in the process of manufacturing our EVs and opt to do things which will in due course alleviate their suffering.
 
ging353 said:
It really annoys me when all some people want to do is find the worst in everything these days. I bought an MG ZS EV in March because I was sick of damaging the planet with fumes and paying extortionate prices for fuel. I love driving my electric car and it puts a smile on my face every time I do.
I went shopping the other day on one of the hottest days of the year and sitting at red traffic lights with the window open I was being choked to death by the car next to me pumping out acrid diesel fumes into the atmosphere. Don't tell me that an electric car is doing more damage to the planet than that.
Click to expand...

Not driving one correct, but the battery manufacture incorrect
 
@Phil752
Thanks for your input.
Unfortunately most EV users are ill informed. This is no fault of theirs. EV manufacturers have successfully hid the damage EV battery production does.
For example most EV users do not know that the environmental damage done by producing a single 20 to 30kWh EV battery equates to driving the worse polluting 1.5 diesel engine (@12000 annual mileage) for 18 months.
For a modern 1.5 litre petrol car and a 40kWh electric car coming off the production line today, it will take about 2 years before before the cumulative damage done by the petrol car becomes worse than that of the EV.
Yes at present in the long run EV's are better for the environment after 2 yrs but current analysis show that unless battery production changes and changes fast then soon the cumulative hit as more people switch to EV's will mean the equivalence point may raise to 3,4,5 years or more and gross persistent irreversible environmental damage will turn the poor countries where the minerals for our EV batteries are mined into inhabitable deserts.
BEV manufacturers are likely to behave in relation to battery production the same way ICE manufacturers have behaved over several decades in relation to oil and gas unless we the customers move fast and pressure them to do better.
Discussions like this is the only way to raise awareness and interest and promote positive action. I will encourage all members to join in and contribute no matter their opinion. PLEASE ALWAYS USE POLITE LANGUAGE.
 
This is what I see and hear, That battery production and especially the extraction of cobalt.
so harmful is to the environment.
but cobalt is not only mined in congo but also in china and other places.
and what is now going on is that less and less cobalt is being used for production of batteries.
and a momment arrives that no more cobalt is needed for production.
however, petrol car emissions will continue to exist and there will be significant damage caused by the extraction of oil .
the seas are full of wells that leak and do much damage to the seas and animals.
also in the extraction of oil on land tight oil where chemicals are used, and there is also a lot of damage on antartics where oil is extracted.
then I like to take my hats off to people who would like to pay more for their car and contribute to ensure that there is money for a better and cleaner environment.
and charge their car as much as possible with wind and solar energy.
i think ev riders are on the right track
 
Support us by becoming a Premium Member

Latest MG EVs video

New EVs from MG: MG S9 & MG9 plus hot topics from the forums
Published
Subscribe to our YouTube channel
Back
Top Bottom