EV opposition in the media is ramping up

Not sure if this counts as opposition in the media but this was mentioned to me by a friend as a reason not to get an EV.

There's a video on EV used prices:


This is based on this article on EV used car price drops:
www.thisismoney.co.uk

Used EVs that plunged in value in 2023 - some plummeted by almost half

The value of second-hand EVs have taken a battering as a result of falling demand, increasing supply entering the market and more appealing deals on brand-new electric models. These are the 30 worst hit.
www.thisismoney.co.uk www.thisismoney.co.uk

This article compares the used car price of a 1 year old car with 10,000 miles at the end of 2022 and compares it with a 1 year old / 10,000 mile example at the end of 2023.

Note:
  • This is a used car to used car price comparison (not based on new car prices), showing the drop during that period, not depreciation (it highlights the very high used prices a year ago compared to now).
  • The MG4 does not feature as only cars that were launched by 1st January 2022 (and hence 1 year old examples by end of 2022) are included.
  • MGs seem to have some of the smallest losses of those included.
  • Some of the highest losers are older designed car (some no longer on sale) with more limited range, or otherwise less desirable, which is a weakness of the methodology.

The top 30 price drops are:

30. MG ZS EV (2019-present) - down 31.3%/£8,056
29. Audi e-tron GT (2021-present) - down 32.4%/£30,529
28. Audi Q4 e-tron (2021-present) - down 32.4%/£16,683
27. MG5 EV (2020-present) - down 34%/£8,125
26. BMW i3 (2013-22) - down 34.3%/£10,028
25. Kia e-Niro (2018-23) - down 34.5%/£10,888
24. Hyundai Ioniq 5 (2021-present) - down 34.7%/£14,845
23. Honda-e (2020-present) - down 35%/£9,600
22. Hyundai Ioniq (2019-23) - down 35.9%/£8,650
21. Polestar 2 (2019-present) - down 36.1%/£15,995
20. Fiat 500 Electric (2020-present) - down 36.1%/£8,150
19. Audi e-tron Sportback (2019-23) - down 36.1%/£20,792
18. Volkswagen ID.3 (2020-present) - down 36.4%/£12,409
17. DS3 Crossback E-Tense (2019-pres) - down 37%/£9,175
16. Peugeot e-208 (2019-present) - down 37.1%/£9,295
15. Hyundai Kona (2018-present) - down 38%/£11,275
14. Mini Electric (2019-23) - down 38.4%/£10,842
13. Citroen e-C4 (2020-present) - down 38.4%/£10,013
12. Peugeot e-2008 (2019-23) - down 38.4%/£10,720
11. Lexus UX (2020-present) - down 38.7%/£13,463
10. Renault Zoe (2019-present) - down 39%/£7,836
9. Vauxhall Corsa-e (2019-present) - down 39.3%/£8,816
8. Mazda MX-30 (2020-present) - down 40%/£9,438
7. Nissan Leaf (2017-present) - down 40.2%/£9,914
6. Jaguar I-Pace (2018-present) - down 40.4%/£21,010
5. Vauxhall Mokka-e (2020-present) - down 40.8%/£11,011
4. Mercedes Benz EQA (2021-present) - down 41.2%/£19,150
3. Mercedes Benz EQC (2019-present) - down 41.2%/£24,250
2. Volkswagen e-Up (2013-2022) - down 42.7%/£9.150
1. Seat Mii Electric (2019-2022) - down 45.6%/£8,500
 
1-2 years ago second hand EVs were above new prices, so all that has happened is now they are at genuine second hand prices, taking into account severe over pricing of some models & Tesla price reductions!
 
Whilst I'm an unswaying supporter and user of EV's, Harrys Garage has done a pretty fair assessment of the EV market where were at now and where it's going to be very difficult to get to in the future, well worth a watch.

 
johnb80 said:
Whilst I'm an unswaying supporter and user of EV's, Harrys Garage has done a pretty fair assessment of the EV market where were at now and where it's going to be very difficult to get to in the future, well worth a watch.

Click to expand...

Aye I watched him in his “ toy cupboard “ yesterday. His take is interesting and the financial undertones are probably valid - for now ?
But he’s unaware that he’s wrong 😂😂
 
johnb80 said:
Whilst I'm an unswaying supporter and user of EV's, Harrys Garage has done a pretty fair assessment of the EV market where were at now and where it's going to be very difficult to get to in the future, well worth a watch.

Click to expand...

I did see some validity in his assessment, but feel it was heavily skewed. If you must be able to tow 3.5 tonnes then immediately limited to a handful of cars of any fuel. I was disappointed that he highlighted the very high degradation of gen 1 EVs with a reference to temperature without pointing out most current EVs have active temperature control and that larger batteries equate to more miles per cycle and therefore less degradation for a given number of miles. Which in a way also points to a problem with PHEVs.
Lease prices have always favoured vehicles with good residual values and legacy auto attempts to cash in on early adopters is way too late so their over priced offerings will fall in value quickly, resulting in high lease prices.
I think the idea of running your car on Sustain is like having a BEV that you can only fuel at home, possible for some but at £4 a litre its a non starter.
A fair comment that the infrastructure is inadequate to mass adoption and the cost seems extortionate, but almost ignored the fact that if 90% of your travel is using off peak electricity/solar the odd few kWh at 79p is more than covered by paying 2p per mile or less.
 
We need to consider taxation of electricity - Ionity rates across Europe: -

countryno subscription
United Kingdom0.87 EUR/kWh
Switzerland0.84 EUR/kWh
Czech Republic0.83 EUR/kWh
Poland0.81 EUR/kWh
Finland0.79 EUR/min
Belgium0.79 EUR/kWh
Estonia0.79 EUR/kWh
Italy0.79 EUR/kWh
Latvia0.79 EUR/kWh
Lithuania0.79 EUR/kWh
Netherlands0.79 EUR/kWh
Slovakia0.79 EUR/kWh
Slovenia0.79 EUR/kWh
Croatia0.74 EUR/kWh
Ireland0.73 EUR/kWh
Denmark0.71 EUR/kWh
Austria0.69 EUR/kWh
Germany0.69 EUR/kWh
Sweden0.66 EUR/kWh
Spain0.65 EUR/kWh
France0.59 EUR/kWh
Norway0.53 EUR/kWh
 
GaryMG4 said:
I did see some validity in his assessment, but feel it was heavily skewed. If you must be able to tow 3.5 tonnes then immediately limited to a handful of cars of any fuel. I was disappointed that he highlighted the very high degradation of gen 1 EVs with a reference to temperature without pointing out most current EVs have active temperature control and that larger batteries equate to more miles per cycle and therefore less degradation for a given number of miles. Which in a way also points to a problem with PHEVs.
Lease prices have always favoured vehicles with good residual values and legacy auto attempts to cash in on early adopters is way too late so their over priced offerings will fall in value quickly, resulting in high lease prices.
I think the idea of running your car on Sustain is like having a BEV that you can only fuel at home, possible for some but at £4 a litre its a non starter.
A fair comment that the infrastructure is inadequate to mass adoption and the cost seems extortionate, but almost ignored the fact that if 90% of your travel is using off peak electricity/solar the odd few kWh at 79p is more than covered by paying 2p per mile or less.
Click to expand...
It is at least a relief to listen to someone relatively sane explain their thoughts in a measured way. I don't want to watch anti-EV youtube rants by various others, so this is the only one I've seen where I can get them from the horse's mouth.

Yes we may disagree with some points but fundamentally the only real argument I'd have is in him inferring his experience/views are universal. Personally I'm not in the least 'infuriated' by sub-200 mile cold weather miles for example. But I don't have to tow or drive vast distances and don't mind charging publicly once in a blue moon. I wouldn't try to convince anyone else it was for them, just state my own experience.
 
okohll said:
Personally I'm not in the least 'infuriated' by sub-200 mile cold weather miles for example. But I don't have to tow or drive vast distances and don't mind charging publicly once in a blue moon.
Click to expand...
Didn't stop me driving my MG5 to Portugal for Xmas & NY did it. Took no longer than an ICE.

TBH, driving in winter = more tiring driving = more breaks, but still did 400-500 miles a day in a reasonable time.
 
johnb80 said:
Whilst I'm an unswaying supporter and user of EV's, Harrys Garage has done a pretty fair assessment of the EV market where were at now and where it's going to be very difficult to get to in the future, well worth a watch.

Click to expand...

Harry makes some good points:
  • There are a lot of ridiculously expensive high-end EVs and this may have been fuelled by the company car tax treatment and business tax incentives.
  • The motor trade doesn't understand EVs well and doesn't know what to do with them.
  • Insurers are writing cars off that could be repaired and parts delays are long.
  • There is a lot of confusion and uncertainty out there about EV ownership.
  • Cold weather range is a bigger drop with EVs than ICE.
  • Towing a large item with an EV, the range isn't there yet.
  • Charging networks need to be better.

However, some of what he says is a bit ridiculous:
  • A multimillionaire complaining and comparing about monthly payments on two £100k+ Range Rover while surrounded by his priceless car collection.
  • He talks a lot about manufacturers not giving people what they want without ever explaining what that is.
  • He ignores vastly cheaper options for a "family car", he isn't living in the world we are living in.
  • He spouts misleading guff about battery degradation, PHEVs are not the same as BEVs.
  • He acknowledges the value of home charging and then immediately says EVs should have longer range so you don't need to public charge all the time (which you don't need if you home charge).

As for his remedies:
  • Efficiency metrics for EVs should be promoted and compared much more, arguably there should be a tax implication.
  • Battery health does make sense to make visible to secondhand buyers.

There is an easy way to get better winter range: just reserve a much bigger buffer and make it available in winter to offset reduced range. But it has a cost.
 
Have a look at this. I was avoiding it because of the clickbaity title, but it's actually much better than I was expecting and he has some extremely good points.

 
tsedge said:
Not sure if this counts as opposition in the media but this was mentioned to me by a friend as a reason not to get an EV.

There's a video on EV used prices:


This is based on this article on EV used car price drops:
www.thisismoney.co.uk

Used EVs that plunged in value in 2023 - some plummeted by almost half

The value of second-hand EVs have taken a battering as a result of falling demand, increasing supply entering the market and more appealing deals on brand-new electric models. These are the 30 worst hit.
www.thisismoney.co.uk www.thisismoney.co.uk

This article compares the used car price of a 1 year old car with 10,000 miles at the end of 2022 and compares it with a 1 year old / 10,000 mile example at the end of 2023.

Note:
  • This is a used car to used car price comparison (not based on new car prices), showing the drop during that period, not depreciation (it highlights the very high used prices a year ago compared to now).
  • The MG4 does not feature as only cars that were launched by 1st January 2022 (and hence 1 year old examples by end of 2022) are included.
  • MGs seem to have some of the smallest losses of those included.
  • Some of the highest losers are older designed car (some no longer on sale) with more limited range, or otherwise less desirable, which is a weakness of the methodology.

The top 30 price drops are:

30. MG ZS EV (2019-present) - down 31.3%/£8,056
29. Audi e-tron GT (2021-present) - down 32.4%/£30,529
28. Audi Q4 e-tron (2021-present) - down 32.4%/£16,683
27. MG5 EV (2020-present) - down 34%/£8,125
26. BMW i3 (2013-22) - down 34.3%/£10,028
25. Kia e-Niro (2018-23) - down 34.5%/£10,888
24. Hyundai Ioniq 5 (2021-present) - down 34.7%/£14,845
23. Honda-e (2020-present) - down 35%/£9,600
22. Hyundai Ioniq (2019-23) - down 35.9%/£8,650
21. Polestar 2 (2019-present) - down 36.1%/£15,995
20. Fiat 500 Electric (2020-present) - down 36.1%/£8,150
19. Audi e-tron Sportback (2019-23) - down 36.1%/£20,792
18. Volkswagen ID.3 (2020-present) - down 36.4%/£12,409
17. DS3 Crossback E-Tense (2019-pres) - down 37%/£9,175
16. Peugeot e-208 (2019-present) - down 37.1%/£9,295
15. Hyundai Kona (2018-present) - down 38%/£11,275
14. Mini Electric (2019-23) - down 38.4%/£10,842
13. Citroen e-C4 (2020-present) - down 38.4%/£10,013
12. Peugeot e-2008 (2019-23) - down 38.4%/£10,720
11. Lexus UX (2020-present) - down 38.7%/£13,463
10. Renault Zoe (2019-present) - down 39%/£7,836
9. Vauxhall Corsa-e (2019-present) - down 39.3%/£8,816
8. Mazda MX-30 (2020-present) - down 40%/£9,438
7. Nissan Leaf (2017-present) - down 40.2%/£9,914
6. Jaguar I-Pace (2018-present) - down 40.4%/£21,010
5. Vauxhall Mokka-e (2020-present) - down 40.8%/£11,011
4. Mercedes Benz EQA (2021-present) - down 41.2%/£19,150
3. Mercedes Benz EQC (2019-present) - down 41.2%/£24,250
2. Volkswagen e-Up (2013-2022) - down 42.7%/£9.150
1. Seat Mii Electric (2019-2022) - down 45.6%/£8,500
Click to expand...


Similar to a recent video by Electrifying. Also should be noted that these are trade prices not retail, so you will not find any on Autotrader to buy at those prices.

 
tsedge said:
Not sure if this counts as opposition in the media but this was mentioned to me by a friend as a reason not to get an EV.

There's a video on EV used prices:


This is based on this article on EV used car price drops:
www.thisismoney.co.uk

Used EVs that plunged in value in 2023 - some plummeted by almost half

The value of second-hand EVs have taken a battering as a result of falling demand, increasing supply entering the market and more appealing deals on brand-new electric models. These are the 30 worst hit.
www.thisismoney.co.uk www.thisismoney.co.uk

This article compares the used car price of a 1 year old car with 10,000 miles at the end of 2022 and compares it with a 1 year old / 10,000 mile example at the end of 2023.

Note:
  • This is a used car to used car price comparison (not based on new car prices), showing the drop during that period, not depreciation (it highlights the very high used prices a year ago compared to now).
  • The MG4 does not feature as only cars that were launched by 1st January 2022 (and hence 1 year old examples by end of 2022) are included.
  • MGs seem to have some of the smallest losses of those included.
  • Some of the highest losers are older designed car (some no longer on sale) with more limited range, or otherwise less desirable, which is a weakness of the methodology.

The top 30 price drops are:

30. MG ZS EV (2019-present) - down 31.3%/£8,056
29. Audi e-tron GT (2021-present) - down 32.4%/£30,529
28. Audi Q4 e-tron (2021-present) - down 32.4%/£16,683
27. MG5 EV (2020-present) - down 34%/£8,125
26. BMW i3 (2013-22) - down 34.3%/£10,028
25. Kia e-Niro (2018-23) - down 34.5%/£10,888
24. Hyundai Ioniq 5 (2021-present) - down 34.7%/£14,845
23. Honda-e (2020-present) - down 35%/£9,600
22. Hyundai Ioniq (2019-23) - down 35.9%/£8,650
21. Polestar 2 (2019-present) - down 36.1%/£15,995
20. Fiat 500 Electric (2020-present) - down 36.1%/£8,150
19. Audi e-tron Sportback (2019-23) - down 36.1%/£20,792
18. Volkswagen ID.3 (2020-present) - down 36.4%/£12,409
17. DS3 Crossback E-Tense (2019-pres) - down 37%/£9,175
16. Peugeot e-208 (2019-present) - down 37.1%/£9,295
15. Hyundai Kona (2018-present) - down 38%/£11,275
14. Mini Electric (2019-23) - down 38.4%/£10,842
13. Citroen e-C4 (2020-present) - down 38.4%/£10,013
12. Peugeot e-2008 (2019-23) - down 38.4%/£10,720
11. Lexus UX (2020-present) - down 38.7%/£13,463
10. Renault Zoe (2019-present) - down 39%/£7,836
9. Vauxhall Corsa-e (2019-present) - down 39.3%/£8,816
8. Mazda MX-30 (2020-present) - down 40%/£9,438
7. Nissan Leaf (2017-present) - down 40.2%/£9,914
6. Jaguar I-Pace (2018-present) - down 40.4%/£21,010
5. Vauxhall Mokka-e (2020-present) - down 40.8%/£11,011
4. Mercedes Benz EQA (2021-present) - down 41.2%/£19,150
3. Mercedes Benz EQC (2019-present) - down 41.2%/£24,250
2. Volkswagen e-Up (2013-2022) - down 42.7%/£9.150
1. Seat Mii Electric (2019-2022) - down 45.6%/£8,500
Click to expand...

Surely it should be viewed as a reason to buy an EV, 1 year old, massive discount, why not?
 
Rolfe said:
Have a look at this. I was avoiding it because of the clickbaity title, but it's actually much better than I was expecting and he has some extremely good points.

Click to expand...

Just a lot of gas and waffle. 65 years ago my milk was delivered by electric milk float nothing new just have to get rid of cancer causing particulates in the air.
 
ozzz said:
Just a lot of gas and waffle. 65 years ago my milk was delivered by electric milk float nothing new just have to get rid of cancer causing particulates in the air.
Click to expand...
Ours too ... and I sometimes used to get a lift on it from home to Junior School. :)
 
Gadget Geek said:
About the same life span as a nuclear plant then, only far cheaper to dismantle and replace, and no lethal waste products to dispose of. :)

As a point of interest, this weekend in the UK, wind generation accounted for over 50% of the total amount required.

GB Fuel type power generation production

GridWatch | Live statistic of UK National Electricity grid by type of generation | Solar PV power Generation | Coal Stations output in Gigawatts | Wind Output Gigawatts | Nuclear energy output |Biomass power generation Output
gridwatch.co.uk gridwatch.co.uk
Click to expand...
Cracking link... Fantastic background information. Thanks :)
 
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