Little on the outside, large on range

Gomev

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I'm probably in a small minority but my thinking is that I would like a small EV but with a long range.
This hasn't always been my thoughts but has slowly percolated to the top. I have always liked big cars since having a family and got used to comfy cruising after the boyhood boy racer went and parked in the back room. Now the family has long gone I'm leaning now towards smaller vehicles.
When I progressed to EVs my first had a smallish range, (ZS EV Gen1), but when I saw the MG5 had longer range, 250, that was for me and I believed that range was sufficient for anybody really. In practical common sense terms it still is.
However when I moved away from MG for various reasons I got a Kona Gen1 facelift, as in my profile pic, and the WLTP for that is 302 miles (and easily achievable when it's not cold). I have got used to that and find it very useful having the extra range. We have a friend that lives in Northumberland and a day trip to visit is around 240 miles. Doing this without even considering a charge during the day is handy, not to mention economically cheaper.

So not to cut a long story short, I quite fancy a small car with a range of 300 (achievable) miles. Say a Renault 5 or similar with a WLTP of 350. I know the arguments of why carry around a big battery when you're only travelling locally 90 percent of the time ? However if we carry that argument to it's conclusion we would only ever have cars with small range.

This is a case of range convenience and not of anxiety. Am I alone ?
 
I quite fancy a small car with a range of 300 (achievable) miles. Say a Renault 5 or similar with a WLTP of 350.
So maybe a car which sacrificed the back seats or boot space to extra battery?

I wonder if an expert could Jerry-rig such a vehicle?

Old cars get converted to electric after all.
 
I'm probably in a small minority but my thinking is that I would like a small EV but with a long range.
This hasn't always been my thoughts but has slowly percolated to the top. I have always liked big cars since having a family and got used to comfy cruising after the boyhood boy racer went and parked in the back room. Now the family has long gone I'm leaning now towards smaller vehicles.
When I progressed to EVs my first had a smallish range, (ZS EV Gen1), but when I saw the MG5 had longer range, 250, that was for me and I believed that range was sufficient for anybody really. In practical common sense terms it still is.
However when I moved away from MG for various reasons I got a Kona Gen1 facelift, as in my profile pic, and the WLTP for that is 302 miles (and easily achievable when it's not cold). I have got used to that and find it very useful having the extra range. We have a friend that lives in Northumberland and a day trip to visit is around 240 miles. Doing this without even considering a charge during the day is handy, not to mention economically cheaper.

So not to cut a long story short, I quite fancy a small car with a range of 300 (achievable) miles. Say a Renault 5 or similar with a WLTP of 350. I know the arguments of why carry around a big battery when you're only travelling locally 90 percent of the time ? However if we carry that argument to it's conclusion we would only ever have cars with small range.

This is a case of range convenience and not of anxiety. Am I alone ?

Agree. Small car, Big range would suit a lot of people. 🙂👍
 
I think 'longest day trip' is the key. Mine is around 180 miles, comfortably achieved with my car, any time of year. As for size, our eNiro is too big except that we use is to carry two kayaks and the associated gear when the size really works well. So the range/size equation really is the one that works for your circumstances. I enjoyed the years where an MX5 was my daily drive but I expect now I would tire of the inelegant attempts to get out due to knees not cooperating.
 
So maybe a car which sacrificed the back seats or boot space to extra battery?

I wonder if an expert could Jerry-rig such a vehicle?

Old cars get converted to electric after all.
Battery density is improving all the time, a small battery with the same energy will be available soon. Also the smaller car will be lighter so efficiency would be better.

Sounds good. A small SUV with wide doors so those with arthritic knees can get in and out easier and a low sill to the boot so my dogs can get in and out without being lifted 😁
I agree. the trouble is people/manufacturers/motoring journalists only think of smaller cars as urban cars, whatever they may be.
The Kona I have now pretty much fits the bill, it's more than comfortable enough for the two of us, can fit four in when needed but I wouldn't like to be behind me for too long :) The newer generation though is larger, as is the way these days, and consequently less efficient.
 
Battery density is improving all the time, a small battery with the same energy will be available soon. Also the smaller car will be lighter so efficiency would be better.
In that hypothetical case there isn't as much of a trade-off. The world would be a better place if there were more types of battery.

Not all small cars would end up with massive range I don't think - extra cost and potential to make a car with a regular battery even lighter and more roomy would be an improvement to those as well.
 
Totally agree, but I don’t think charging companies will go for it, imagine all the people it will take out of their rip off pricing!
 
Don't really see the need personally, 200+ is plenty, I can't drive anywhere near the range of the car without stopping for a "comfort" break, and may as well charge while I'm stopped. In most cases the car is back to 80% + by the time I'm ready to move on. The most frustrating times are when you stop, plan to get something to eat, and have to leave your food to go unplug because the car is already at 100%.
 
Don't really see the need personally, 200+ is plenty, I can't drive anywhere near the range of the car without stopping for a "comfort" break, and may as well charge while I'm stopped. In most cases the car is back to 80% + by the time I'm ready to move on. The most frustrating times are when you stop, plan to get something to eat, and have to leave your food to go unplug because the car is already at 100%.
200+ is probably plenty so long as that is real world and not the WLTP figure. If real world was 200 then you are going to need to recharge at somewhere around 150-160 unless you're prepared to go really low. Then normally back up to about 80%, which would give a range of c. 160 miles, but again you wouldn't go 160 to empty, so a realistic range after en-route charging of just 120-130 miles.
Additionally does that 200 real world cover longer distances at motorway speeds, or travel in winter ?
Most of this is irrelevant if we never go more than 250-300 miles in a day, one stop, one charge does it, but for those that travel further, or just want to avoid as much public rapid charging as possible it's cheaper to have a load put in at home for that extra 100 miles range for a true 300+.

It's all about horses for courses, each to their own, and personal preference. Personally I like the comfort of knowing I've got that little bit extra in reserve on journeys.
 
200+ is probably plenty so long as that is real world and not the WLTP figure. If real world was 200 then you are going to need to recharge at somewhere around 150-160 unless you're prepared to go really low. Then normally back up to about 80%, which would give a range of c. 160 miles, but again you wouldn't go 160 to empty, so a realistic range after en-route charging of just 120-130 miles.
Additionally does that 200 real world cover longer distances at motorway speeds, or travel in winter ?
Most of this is irrelevant if we never go more than 250-300 miles in a day, one stop, one charge does it, but for those that travel further, or just want to avoid as much public rapid charging as possible it's cheaper to have a load put in at home for that extra 100 miles range for a true 300+.

It's all about horses for courses, each to their own, and personal preference. Personally I like the comfort of knowing I've got that little bit extra in reserve on journeys.
I know what you mean about real range on long distance journeys being an important measure. It doesn't matter what great efficiency you get around town when you are going a consistent speed on the motorway.

But the relative (marginal) difference that an extra kWh of capacity or mile of range reduces as capacity increases.

The difference between a 24kWh leaf and a 50kWh car is massive. It is a gamechanger. The difference between a 50kWh and a 75kWh is no doubt noticeable for long journeys but it isn't a complete step change. The difference between 125kWh and 150kWh would be negligible.

As the number of rapid and destination chargers increases the inconvenience of the smaller battery will reduce further.

I think that 45-60kWh will be the sweet spot with people who travel long distances for work needing longer ranges.

I wonder if an alternative would be to do something like the Cybertruck. They've got an option where you can give up some space in the bed at the back to fit in a range extending battery.

You could buy an extra battery pack and give up some space in the boot or back seat(s) to fit it in.

The issue would be connecting up a high voltage line, so it might need to be done by a garage but you could maybe take out a seat and put in a battery box to get extra range.

I'm not sure manufacturers will be keen on that sort of thing - they would want to sell it all upfront and not want the possibility of modifications that might cause damage to cars under warranty.
 
I saw something the other day about a range extender battery that was towed, that was available to hire for short-range cars some years ago. I gather it was discontinued as improving range meant that people didn't really need them any more.
 
I wonder if an alternative would be to do something like the Cybertruck. They've got an option where you can give up some space in the bed at the back to fit in a range extending battery.

You could buy an extra battery pack and give up some space in the boot or back seat(s) to fit it in.

The issue would be connecting up a high voltage line, so it might need to be done by a garage but you could maybe take out a seat and put in a battery box to get extra range.

I'm not sure manufacturers will be keen on that sort of thing - they would want to sell it all upfront and not want the possibility of modifications that might cause damage to cars under warranty.
Might be easier to incorporate the extender into the battery in the first place. The extra weight is not that significant in a 1.5-2 ton car anyway.:)

I know what you mean about real range on long distance journeys being an important measure. It doesn't matter what great efficiency you get around town when you are going a consistent speed on the motorway.

But the relative (marginal) difference that an extra kWh of capacity or mile of range reduces as capacity increases.

The difference between a 24kWh leaf and a 50kWh car is massive. It is a gamechanger. The difference between a 50kWh and a 75kWh is no doubt noticeable for long journeys but it isn't a complete step change. The difference between 125kWh and 150kWh would be negligible.

As the number of rapid and destination chargers increases the inconvenience of the smaller battery will reduce further.

I think that 45-60kWh will be the sweet spot with people who travel long distances for work needing longer ranges.
In the same car with the same motor I imagine the range would be almost proportional to the battery size. The main significant difference between some cars is efficiency. Some EVs are quite poor and require extra kWh to achieve the same range. Tesla are notoriously good with their efficiency, so are Kia and Hyundai to a slightly lesser degree so don't require those huge batteries but still attain the range.
 
I don't think you are ever likely to find a small car with a large battery. It just doesn't work well, small cars are efficient due to light weight. Perhaps when batteries have shrunk/lightened another 50%?

Towing a spare battery seems a bit insane to me, given that EVs typically lose half their range when towing anything of substantial size.... you'd probably end up with the same range without towing.

ICE vehicles only routinely achieved long ranges many decades after introduction when they had been made much more efficient and also after diesel engines achieved decent power for their economy. We should expect the same with EVs.

A lot depends on whether people without the ability to charge at home get a good solution. If they do, there's not a strong argument for a long range.
 
Might be easier to incorporate the extender into the battery in the first place. The extra weight is not that significant in a 1.5-2 ton car anyway.:)
I was thinking about internal space, not weight, though that is a reason to keep the battery quantity down, along with the extra efficiency (and thus range) you get.

Some people might be willing to give up some internal space for battery, hence my suggestion to allow a swap-out battery for a seat or for boot space.

That loss of boot space or back seats won't work for everyone.

If a manufacturer designs a car from scratch with a massive battery but limited internal space they will lose a lot of money because they are catering for a very niche market. Hence why you don't see that.
 
From what I can see of the charging networks in Europe, it only seems to be a problem in the UK.
1 Expensive
2 Not a great deal of charging stations.
3 Prices vary according to KW power of the station.
 
I was thinking about internal space, not weight, though that is a reason to keep the battery quantity down, along with the extra efficiency (and thus range) you get.

Some people might be willing to give up some internal space for battery, hence my suggestion to allow a swap-out battery for a seat or for boot space.

That loss of boot space or back seats won't work for everyone.

If a manufacturer designs a car from scratch with a massive battery but limited internal space they will lose a lot of money because they are catering for a very niche market. Hence why you don't see that.
Today's skateboard platforms negate most of those worries, small battery , big battery all in the same space under the car.
 
Today's skateboard platforms negate most of those worries, small battery , big battery all in the same space under the car.
I am unconvinced that you can fit more batteries in the skateboard chassis of a small car, though I don't have data to hand so I'm not inconvincible.

There isn't room in my MG4 for a spare tyre because there are batteries under there. Is that just because it is LFP? The MG4 has a medium-sized chassis, but you want an even smaller footprint for a small car.

I accept that this will be possible if battery density increases, but for now I think you would either have to double up the battery in the floor (so the car becomes very tall) or stuff extra batteries in extra places.

Happy to be proven wrong on that if you have any examples of a skateboard chassis with a small footprint (wheelbase and width) and high capacity.
 
I am unconvinced that you can fit more batteries in the skateboard chassis of a small car, though I don't have data to hand so I'm not inconvincible.

There isn't room in my MG4 for a spare tyre because there are batteries under there. Is that just because it is LFP? The MG4 has a medium-sized chassis, but you want an even smaller footprint for a small car.

I accept that this will be possible if battery density increases, but for now I think you would either have to double up the battery in the floor (so the car becomes very tall) or stuff extra batteries in extra places.

Happy to be proven wrong on that if you have any examples of a skateboard chassis with a small footprint (wheelbase and width) and high capacity.

I think spare tyres are just a dying fashion. Lots of new ICE cars don't have them.
 
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