Sodium Ion battery

[5teep]

This is VERY interesting news..

 

[Rolfe]

Hmm. Sam is very big on the hype. I'll reserve judgement for now.

 

[Bam Bam]

Hmm. Sam is very big on the hype. I'll reserve judgement for now.

Probably wise.

He gets very excited about press releases.

Battery tech seems to be developing all the time so I don't doubt there will be new chemistries and sodium will end up a big part of things.

But new tech. has to then match the cost and reliability of the existing technology, so not everything that works in theory/labs will end up being widely adopted.

Hopefully it will though!

 

[5teep]

Probably wise.

He gets very excited about press releases.

Battery tech seems to be developing all the time so I don't doubt there will be new chemistries and sodium will end up a big part of things.

But new tech. has to then match the cost and reliability of the existing technology, so not everything that works in theory/labs will end up being widely adopted.

Hopefully it will though!

I've been reading about Sodium Ion for a couple of years, the main issue was battery life, they had a very low charge cycle count before failing. Something to do with the sodium (anode?) being gradually coated with gunk during charging cycles eventually stopping it from working.

If it takes another year or so it's still really fast evolving tech.

 

[Rolfe]

Before I got my car people were talking about, maybe we should wait for sodium batteries. We're still talking about them being several years away.

 

[Bam Bam]

Before I got my car people were talking about, maybe we should wait for sodium batteries. We're still talking about them being several years away.

Yeah that is the problem with all this talk of new technology.

It puts some people off, unfortunately. They are worried they will end up with something that is out of date, like an early Zoe or something.

We are now at the stage of mature technology.

Battery chemistry doesn't impact on operability and an EV will continue to work fine even if a new battery chemistry comes out.

 

[Rolfe]

Even if the sodium chemistry is properly worked out it takes time to test it, then for manufacturers to decide to incorporate it in cars, and for large-scale manufacturing capacity to be installed.

 

[Archev]

Even if the sodium chemistry is properly worked out it takes time to test it, then for manufacturers to decide to incorporate it in cars, and for large-scale manufacturing capacity to be installed.

That’ll be peppered with problems.

 

[Bam Bam]

That’ll be peppered with problems.

Don't "Push it" mate.

More seriously, the hope is that the sodium chemistries will be pretty similar to the LFP and so easily manufactured using existing techniques and machinery. And it is in some cars in Asia already. But not yet widely rolled out.

You would think it would dominate stationary storage at least, where cost and temperature flexibility are more important and weight less so.

 

[Archev]

Don't "Push it" mate.

More seriously, the hope is that the sodium chemistries will be pretty similar to the LFP and so easily manufactured using existing techniques and machinery. And it is in some cars in Asia already. But not yet widely rolled out.

You would think it would dominate stationary storage at least, where cost and temperature flexibility are more important and weight less so.

Isn’t it battery season yet ?

 

[Kenp1]

I wouldn't believe much Sam says, he doesn't seem to worry much about facts.

 

[EVsince2016]

Even if the sodium chemistry is properly worked out it takes time to test it, then for manufacturers to decide to incorporate it in cars, and for large-scale manufacturing capacity to be installed.

I think one Chinese low cost brand already uses sodium ion batteries. Cherry maybe?

 

[5teep]

I think one Chinese low cost brand already uses sodium ion batteries. Cherry maybe?

Huawei according to the video.

 

[Bam Bam]

Huawei according to the video.

I believe Yiwei and JMEV, two small western-backed companies were the first two cars.

Rumours that some bigger companies will be introducing them later in 2025.

 

[Gadget Geek]

Don't "Push it" mate.

More seriously, the hope is that the sodium chemistries will be pretty similar to the LFP and so easily manufactured using existing techniques and machinery. And it is in some cars in Asia already. But not yet widely rolled out.

You would think it would dominate stationary storage at least, where cost and temperature flexibility are more important and weight less so.

Redox flow batteries are a better fit for stationary storage.

Redox Flow Batteries: potential, alternatives and challenges

With projected growth at a compound annual growth rate of 19.9% through 2030, these batteries promise to transform both renewable energy storage and grid stability.

cicenergigune.com

 

[Bam Bam]

Redox flow batteries are a better fit for stationary storage.

Redox Flow Batteries: potential, alternatives and challenges

With projected growth at a compound annual growth rate of 19.9% through 2030, these batteries promise to transform both renewable energy storage and grid stability.

cicenergigune.com

Seems likely to be both.

Battery cells (li-ion and na-ion or others) for in-day storage, Vanadium for day to day fluctuations.

Typical energy storage capacity compared to typical discharge duration for various geologic and nongeologic energy storage methods

Figure 3 from USGS Fact Sheet 2022-3082. Graph of typical energy storage capacity compared to typical discharge duration for various geologic and nongeologic energy storage methods. Oval sizes are estimated based on current technology. Modified from Crotogino and others (2017) and Matos and...

www.usgs.gov

 

[Bam Bam]

These researchers don't seem to think that Flow batteries will compete with batteries and pumped hydro, though: https://pure.tudelft.nl/ws/portalfiles/portal/177830478/energies-17-01084.pdf

 

[Bam Bam]

This is the kind of thing I was looking for, as it takes account of the likely/predicted cost of the different technologies:

This one has Flow batteries at shorter duration, with batteries and H2 gradually squeezing out compressed air and pumped hydro.

 

[Gadget Geek]

This is the kind of thing I was looking for, as it takes account of the likely/predicted cost of the different technologies:

This one has Flow batteries at shorter duration, with batteries and H2 gradually squeezing out compressed air and pumped hydro.

I would take that one with a pinch of salt if it thinks hydrogen is going to squeeze out compressed air and pumped hydro. There aren't enough renewables around to produce the amount of green hydrogen needed, which leaves steam reclaimation of methane. I'm betting this chart was produced by the oil and gas industry.

 

[Bam Bam]

I would take that one with a pinch of salt if it thinks hydrogen is going to squeeze out compressed air and pumped hydro. There aren't enough renewables around to produce the amount of green hydrogen needed, which leaves steam reclaimation of methane. I'm betting this chart was produced by the oil and gas industry.

No doubt it will be making a lot of assumptions. There are a lot of variables at play, and it was probably outdated even according to its own model after a few days.