The energy used to make ICE fuel

[Rolfe]

The energy used to make fuel is STAGGERING. Most people think about what happens inside the engine… But the real waste starts LONG before the fuel even reaches your car. To make just 1 litre of petrol: Around 1,700-3,400 kJ (0.5-0.95 kWh) is used just to get oil out the ground. Then another 3,400-6,800 kJ (0.95-1.9 kWh) is used to refine it into usable fuel. That’s 5,100-10,200 kJ (1.4-2.8 kWh) gone before you’ve even driven a single mile. That same energy, just to make the fuel, could be used to drive an EV 6-12 miles. Now scale that to a full tank… A 60 litre tank uses 84-168 kWh of energy just to produce the fuel. If that powered an EV instead, it would drive 336-672 miles. And here’s the WORST part… This doesn’t include shipping it around the world, transporting it to fuel stations or pumping it into a car. All of which use even more energy. The losses involved in the transportation of oil and fuel are staggering, but that’s another post. Then once it’s in your car, it’s burned ONCE, and it’s gone. All that energy used just to burn it ONCE. A petrol engine also only uses about 20-35% of that energy to actually move the wheels. So staggering amounts of energy are being used, just for 70% of what that energy creates to be wasted. Any other industry with these figures would be bankrupt, and it would be classed as an insane practice. So, NEVER forget… Before a fossil car fills its tank, it’s already “spent” enough energy to drive hundreds of miles in an EV. Make it make sense.

 

[Kenp1]

Not really shocking.

I wonder how much power it takes make 1 kWh of electricity?

Even with renewable you have to produce the turbine or solar panel, then there is the network to transport the electricity and the maintenance.

 

[Rolfe]

I don't imagine it's negligible, but it's not going to be close to that.

 

[Kenp1]

These one sided posts on both sides annoy me.

They have based the distance travelled on 4 miles per kWh, a bit on the hopeful side for an everyday figure, and how about the 10% loss when charging the battery.

Look at it another way, 1 litre of fuel has used 2.8kWh, that will get you about 11.2 miles in an EV (or 10 miles with the charging loss), a car doing 40mpg it will get you about 8.8 miles, not much difference.

 

[T1 Terry]

These one sided posts on both sides annoy me.

They have based the distance travelled on 4 miles per kWh, a bit on the hopeful side for an everyday figure, and how about the 10% loss when charging the battery.

Look at it another way, 1 litre of fuel has used 2.8kWh, that will get you about 11.2 miles in an EV (or 10 miles with the charging loss), a car doing 40mpg it will get you about 8.8 miles, not much difference.

The real difference is the 2.8kWh can be harvested from the sun at home, fossil fuel can't, so the energy used to produce the solar panel, racking, wiring battery storage and inverter, can be amortized over the time that it continues to put free fuel into the EV.
The fossil fuel companies might amortize the massive cost of building the network required, but the actual cost to produce will continue to climb. This means the ICE vehicle can never spread that fuel cost over the life of the vehicle to a break even point, it is just a money pit .....

T1 Terry

 

[Kenp1]

Having home solar is a whole different argument, but most people will be getting their power from the grid.

He could have picked so many better points than this, and the only thing that shocked me was how low the figure was.

 

[T1 Terry]

Having home solar is a whole different argument, but most people will be getting their power from the grid.

He could have picked so many better points than this, and the only thing that shocked me was how low the figure was.

I doubt there will be many households, not supplementing their power with solar, now the balcony solar idea seems to becoming legal. Renters can hang panels off the fence to supplement the supply when EV charging.
Not many places are set up to produce biofuel or synthetic petrol and run that from solar power or even renewable energy of any type.
The days of fossil fuels are rapidly coming to an end, the whole middle East fiasco war can be thanked for that ..... Netinyahoo has a lot to answer for, let's hope the world does forget, DJT can be led by anyone, the American people have a lot to answer by electing him for a second time, but at least we can be thankful for his blundering ending the petrodollar and USD dominance as the reserve currency .....

T1 Terry

 

[EvTek23]

If you switch it round to show the efficiency of an EV in comparison:
If each litre of fuel has around 10 kW of energy that is released then a 64 kW (MG 4 LR ) has the equivalent of about 6.4 litres, that's just 1.4 gallons of petrol and it will achieve around 270 miles, then its eMPG is near to 193 mpg equivalent......staggering!

Another really energy inefficient product is the production of aluminium foil.
Your box of 10 m foil starts life as a large aluminium block which is heated to an orange glow and rolled. As it can't be rolled to the thickness required in one pass, this process is repeated many times to achieve the thickness in the packet. It is eventually folded and forms twice the thickness in the packet and is finally separated and slit into the correct width and length. The only plus point is that recycling can achieve the same thing over and over.
AI suggests that it takes between 0.6 to 1.3 kWh of energy to produce a 10m roll.

 

[T1 Terry]

If you switch it round to show the efficiency of an EV in comparison:
If each litre of fuel has around 10 kW of energy that is released then a 64 kW (MG 4 LR ) has the equivalent of about 6.4 litres, that's just 1.4 gallons of petrol and it will achieve around 270 miles, then its eMPG is near to 193 mpg equivalent......staggering!

Another really energy inefficient product is the production of aluminium foil.
Your box of 10 m foil starts life as a large aluminium block which is heated to an orange glow and rolled. As it can't be rolled to the thickness required in one pass, this process is repeated many times to achieve the thickness in the packet. It is eventually folded and forms twice the thickness in the packet and is finally separated and slit into the correct width and length. The only plus point is that recycling can achieve the same thing over and over.
AI suggests that it takes between 0.6 to 1.3 kWh of energy to produce a 10m roll.

But it's still needed in the production of rechargeable batteries for spraying the active coating on (cathode plate) In an LFP cell, both the aluminium and the copper are rolled out to thinner than the roll of aluminium foil used in the kitchen
The up side, it continues to store and release electrical energy for more than 10 yrs, so the energy used to heat the scrap to form ingots, then to form the slab that is rolled into cigarette paper thickness rolls to make the cell plates, gets written off over 10 yrs, the energy to make petrol has to be written off in a single use .....
The copper and aluminium can be recycled as you mentioned, the recycled remains of petrol being used has zero upside .....

T1 Terry

 

[Kenp1]

I'm leaving this one now, it is starting to wonder off subject.

 

[EvTek23]

@T1 Terry, I totally agree about the process for making batteries and the energy cycles they'll give you back over a 10 year lifespan, a much better long term use of the energy involved.
I was thinking of the humble roll of aluminium foil in your kitchen that you tear off a length to wrap your food or sandwiches in everyday.

 

[Gomev]

Not really shocking.

I wonder how much power it takes make 1 kWh of electricity?

Even with renewable you have to produce the turbine or solar panel, then there is the network to transport the electricity and the maintenance.

If you're going to include the cost of producing the turbine/solar panel that produces the electricity then equally shouldn't the cost of the oil rig, drilling equipment, cost of building the oil refinery etc. be included in producing the juice ?

 

[salty]

These one sided posts on both sides annoy me.

Agree. If your an ICE'er you'll post negative stuff about EVs. If your an EV'er you'll obviously post negative stuff about ICE. Mostly cobblers anyway. Must admit though, do like hearing negative stuff about ICE.

 

[siteguru]

Not really shocking.

I wonder how much power it takes make 1 kWh of electricity?

Even with renewable you have to produce the turbine or solar panel, then there is the network to transport the electricity and the maintenance.

Exactly as you have to with ICE fuel .. the drilling rigs etc. don't just make themselves.

Edit: reply posted after reading the quoted post, not after reading the rest of the thread.

 

[Kenp1]

It happens all the time, cherry pick the numbers to suit the argument.

 

[Micropop]

These one sided posts on both sides annoy me.

They have based the distance travelled on 4 miles per kWh, a bit on the hopeful side for an everyday figure, and how about the 10% loss when charging the battery.

Look at it another way, 1 litre of fuel has used 2.8kWh, that will get you about 11.2 miles in an EV (or 10 miles with the charging loss), a car doing 40mpg it will get you about 8.8 miles, not much difference.

Your math doesn't add up. One litre of petrol contains around 8-9kW of energy. Then add what it takes to produce it. Then the ICE is only capable of converting around 25% of that energy to propulsion. En electric engine is 3 to 4 times more efficient.