BBC Panorama Are We Ready For EV's

[Mitch AC DC]

Charger anxiety, this is where Teslas chargers beats the rest, always works!

Maybe so, for Teslas, but not for us { MGs }. Coincidently at my last charging session, there were TWO Teslas taking up the cheap bays.

 

[johnb80]

They can't in practice stop you going ahead without them in the loop, they don't have roving inspectors.

Oh yes they can, if you install one and blow the main fuse or worse damage the cable, youre in the manure up to your neck.

Yes agreed but I am still right that with DC charging directly there is no balancing.

I'm fairly sure it will be balancing but the effect compared to rate of charge will be miniscule. It also depends on whether it's active or passive balancing, I dont know on the MG, hopefully active.

 

[Rolfe]

I have heard that the LR battery only "needs" balancing every so many weeks. I have also heard that the car itself decides when it needs to balance the battery and will not always do it.

I have an SR and it balances at every available opportunity. I have never, ever seen it reach 100% on either the granny charger or a type 2 charger and not spend the next half hour balancing. That includes charging several days on the trot.

If this is what's needed it's going to be a tricky thing to manage for people who mainly rely on a rapid DC top-up to less than 100% and don't have easy access to an AC charger where they can leave the car to do its thing.

 

[Mitch AC DC]

I think to be fair, we all have a bit of range anxiety. If we didn’t plan it properly, we could run out of charge.
The only time when I genuinely did not have any range anxiety was when I had my Tesla because of its superb charging network!

Have you tried taking your "MG4" to your local Tesla charging station lately?

 

[tsedge]

Oh yes they can, if you install one and blow the main fuse or worse damage the cable, youre in the manure up to your neck.

While true, that doesn't stop you doing it in the first place. I was speaking as a practical matter, not recommending it.

I'm fairly sure it will be balancing but the effect compared to rate of charge will be miniscule. It also depends on whether it's active or passive balancing, I dont know on the MG, hopefully active.

I don't know about the MG4 but I thought all the modern pack makers had now gone for active balancing. I suppose it might be a cost issue.

But, yes, in theory it can still balance but the effect will not be the same as a slower (much longer) charge hence the recommendation to balance charge on AC as a way to ensure sufficient time for a good balance.

I have heard that the LR battery only "needs" balancing every so many weeks. I have also heard that the car itself decides when it needs to balance the battery and will not always do it.

Yes, that's right.

I have an SR and it balances at every available opportunity. I have never, ever seen it reach 100% on either the granny charger or a type 2 charger and not spend the next half hour balancing. That includes charging several days on the trot.

Yes. LFP batteries need very regular balancing so the BMS can keep track of the state of charge. With LFP there's very little voltage change between fully charged and discharged (more specifically the curve is very flat) so without regular balancing the BMS can get into difficulties managing the pack.

If this is what's needed it's going to be a tricky thing to manage for people who mainly rely on a rapid DC top-up to less than 100% and don't have easy access to an AC charger where they can leave the car to do its thing.

Yes and many people don't even know this is a thing, so there may be people going back to the dealer with issues just because they don't give the car enough of a chance to balance the pack (eg always use DC chargers).

 

[Rolfe]

So far as I know it seems to be OK to charge to close to 100% on DC, then just finish off on AC at which point the pack will balance. Last Sunday I left the car on a DC charger during the church service, and gave it the full 55 minutes allowed because I was in church, even though I was starting from about 60%. (I actually snuck out during the last hymn to avoid getting an overstay fine, stopped the charge and moved the car and was back in before the last verse was completed!)

Slightly to my surprise the car was only at 98% at that point, not 100%. I took it home and plugged it into the granny charger, where it finished to 100% in an hour or so, then balanced. Could this be a strategy for people without home charging? Charge to almost 100% on DC then just have a relatively short time on AC to finish off?

Yes, that's right.

Yes. LFP batteries need very regular balancing so the BMS can keep track of the state of charge. With LFP there's very little voltage change between fully charged and discharged (more specifically the curve is very flat) so without regular balancing the BMS can get into difficulties managing the pack.

Yes and many people don't even know this is a thing, so there may be people going back to the dealer with issues just because they don't give the car enough of a chance to balance the pack (eg always use DC chargers).

I agree with you, this is not explained to owners clearly enough. Yes it's in the manual but how many people read through the manual - especially if they only have a pdf on their phone! I wouldn't have known if it wasn't for this forum, and watching some YouTube videos.

 

[mystreet]

BBC Panorama's electric vehicle report faces criticism - Energy Live News

The REA has criticised the BBC Panorama report on EVs for allegedly presenting "outdated" and "inaccurate" information about EV charging infrastructure

www.energylivenews.com

 

[tsedge]

So far as I know it seems to be OK to charge to close to 100% on DC, then just finish off on AC at which point the pack will balance. Last Sunday I left the car on a DC charger during the church service, and gave it the full 55 minutes allowed because I was in church, even though I was starting from about 60%. (I actually snuck out during the last hymn to avoid getting an overstay fine, stopped the charge and moved the car and was back in before the last verse was completed!)

Yes that is fine.

Slightly to my surprise the car was only at 98% at that point, not 100%. I took it home and plugged it into the granny charger, where it finished to 100% in an hour or so, then balanced. Could this be a strategy for people without home charging? Charge to almost 100% on DC then just have a relatively short time on AC to finish off?

Sometimes DC charging will terminate before 100%, that's not uncommon. Yes, this can be a good strategy.

It doesn't really matter how the car was charged up, the balancing process is typically slow and needs a few hundred watts and between minutes and an hour typically and hence the recommendation to do it on an AC charger where leaving it to do its thing is no problem.

In theory the car can balance at other states of charge less than 100% but in practice (and again due to the LFP charge curve), balancing at 100% is typically best. You'll only notice it happening at 100%.

BBC Panorama's electric vehicle report faces criticism - Energy Live News

The REA has criticised the BBC Panorama report on EVs for allegedly presenting "outdated" and "inaccurate" information about EV charging infrastructure

www.energylivenews.com

To rebut some of this criticism:

• It well be that 84% of people currently charge at home but this will surely drop since we know early adopters have the cash for home chargers and the driveways for them but as more people adopt, more and more will be on street parking only. So the claim that it will only be 16% of people forever is nonsense. Lower income owners will be less likely to have home chargers.
• In a similar vein, the assumption that EV and ICE ranges are basically the same is wrong, that's only true if you buy a super expensive EV and ignores real-world range with seasonal drops in winter, plus cheaper EVs that will come onto the market with shorter ranges.
• The comparison with ICE cars and petrol/diesel pumps is silly and flawed because an EV typically spends several times as long charging as one would filling up. Most service stations don't have the space to replace the pumps with sufficient chargers for the same number of cars.
• Contactless payments for new chargers doesn't address the thousands of existing ones and will only slowly make a difference over years, it isn't solved today.

I am highly unimpressed by this rebuttal.

 

[Rolfe]

It doesn't really matter how the car was charged up, the balancing process is typically slow and needs a few hundred watts and between minutes and an hour typically and hence the recommendation to do it on an AC charger where leaving it to do its thing is no problem.

In theory the car can balance at other states of charge less than 100% but in practice (and again due to the LFP charge curve), balancing at 100% is typically best. You'll only notice it happening at 100%.

My car typically balances at only 20 watts, although I occasionally see other numbers up to about 80 watts for short periods.

 

[tsedge]

My car typically balances at only 20 watts, although I occasionally see other numbers up to about 80 watts for short periods.

Yes, I should have said "up to a few hundred watts".

 

[Rolfe]

I've never actually seen my SR go over 100 watts while balancing, but presumably batteries vary in their behaviour.

 

[tsedge]

I've never actually seen my SR go over 100 watts while balancing, but presumably batteries vary in their behaviour.

They do and I was just approximating and it will depend on the pack type and what the BMS thinks is needed. I have seen much higher draws but I have NMC.

 

[Rolfe]

Useful to know.

 

[johnb80]

To rebut some of this criticism:

• It well be that 84% of people currently charge at home but this will surely drop since we know early adopters have the cash for home chargers and the driveways for them but as more people adopt, more and more will be on street parking only. So the claim that it will only be 16% of people forever is nonsense. Lower income owners will be less likely to have home chargers.

It will be a difficult number to calculate, new houses usually have drives even starter homes, some of the builders are installing charging points on these homes too. That will distort the figures favourably. I agree it will still be a substantial number of people that cant home charge.

• In a similar vein, the assumption that EV and ICE ranges are basically the same is wrong, that's only true if you buy a super expensive EV and ignores real-world range with seasonal drops in winter, plus cheaper EVs that will come onto the market with shorter ranges.

They are becoming more aligned and as technology advances it will be on par. Toyota have announced their solid state battery, 1000miles range and can be charged in 10 minutes. I look forward to seeing it in action, it sounds like a bit of a pipe dream to me.

• The comparison with ICE cars and petrol/diesel pumps is silly and flawed because an EV typically spends several times as long charging as one would filling up. Most service stations don't have the space to replace the pumps with sufficient chargers for the same number of cars.

Comparison is pointless and EV's have a completely different ethos refuelling. Mine gets refuelled, overnight while I sleep, whilst I'm shopping, whilst I'm at the theatre or best of all at home when the sun is shining on my solar panels. There is absolutely no need for the comparison between ICE and EV, EV has many advantages. If the infrastructure was properly sorted so that the repmobile could drop in to any services and plug in whilst having a coffee/comfort break there wouldn't be an issue. Rapid chargers can put meaningful miles onto the range within 15 to 20 minutes.

• Contactless payments for new chargers doesn't address the thousands of existing ones and will only slowly make a difference over years, it isn't solved today.

It would be a very simple mod to exiting chargers, retrofitting would be easy and simple.

 

[Rolfe]

Hmm. The card reader on the village charge point here has been out of order for weeks. No ChargePlace Scotland card, no electrons. Although I suppose you could try to set up an account on your phone right there under the tree by the river and use the app. Good luck with that.

 

[Ruislip Resident]

Wow!

Anyway, part of your epistle mentioned “So you talk about ways to allow people to charge at the kerb, maybe using their own electricity supply led across the pavement”.

I am interested to know how you would approach this as any trip hazard which is presented by a home Owner / Tenant which subsequently causes a trip or fall will then make the Owner / Tenant liable for any subsequent claim. The local Council can not currently give permission for such practice as they would then become liable.

I agree with you that the third group of people will have major issues to overcome, but cables laid across public footways simply can not be allowed. If you had seen the program, I would have loved to have known your points regarding the lady who completely blocked the footway hence forcing pedestrians onto a live carriageway, and told the reporter “its ok, I have a sign to put out in my windscreen”. Utterly idiotic in my view. Some person with a pushchair / guide dog / white cane / mobility scooter, would be placed in an obvious danger of increasing the potential of meeting live traffic on the carriageway.

Installing decent safe pavement cable gullys seems a no brainer to me. Even if a householder has to pay some or all of the cost. Yes you would still have to manage things with neighbours about getting the space free outside your house when you need to charge. But it would be so much better, even with just granny chargers being used (safely of course) to charge.

 

[Rolfe]

Installing decent safe pavement cable gullys seems a no brainer to me. Even if a householder has to pay some or all of the cost. Yes you would still have to manage things with neighbours about getting the space free outside your house when you need to charge. But it would be so much better, even with just granny chargers being used (safely of course) to charge.

I imagine there is an issue when it's icy and snowy and they're gritting the pavements. Also maybe just with dirt and rain despite the covers on the gullys. But people seem to cope, at least most of the time. Even a decent cable protector can work, if the council allows it, although I still think it would be wise for the householder to take out public liability insurance just in case.

My friend was talking about the spaces not being reserved outside people's houses, and that would be a problem, but in fact in her street I know people do informally respect the space outside each other's houses and I don't think I've ever seen her car not there. Once it's known that someone needs their space to charge I think that would be generally respected in a lot of streets. Also, it's not as if a low-mileage user is going to need to charge every single night.

 

[johnb80]

Hmm. The card reader on the village charge point here has been out of order for weeks. No ChargePlace Scotland card, no electrons. Although I suppose you could try to set up an account on your phone right there under the tree by the river and use the app. Good luck with that.

The card readers fitted to the units in Gainsborough are working fine and have been for years. You dont need to get an app or even have a mobile phone, no luck needed.

 

[Robf]

Using current technology to forsee the future can lead to expensive solving of problems that may not transpire. Although batteries have been around for a long time, the impetus to develop the technology has only recently gathered pace. Battery capability in the even near future looks set to be transformed e.g. Toyota unveils sweeping plans for new battery tech, EV innovation (I wonder what Tesla are up to).
Translated to home batteries and solar / alternative energies, the current infrastructure could well be transformed (not to mention cold fusion ). Interesting times ahead.

 

[Rolfe]

People have been talking about cold fusion for decades. Show me the helium.