Electric vs Petrol vs PHEV Journey Cost

[johnb80]

We export when we SHOULD be storing, but we lack the facilities to do so, therefore we are forced to export.

Why can it not be left in the gas field under the sea, it's stored there, no problem.

 

[Les burrows]

So I think this thread as now gone completely off subject which was which is cheaper to run on journeys. Petrol hybrid of BEV.

Yesterday this article from channel 4s
Factcheck appeared and it just about covers the lot including cost and time scales about the proposed expansion of the oil and gas fields under our oceans there will be no gain from it for a long time to come if any at all for us here in the UK.

Would new North Sea oil and gas make Britain more energy independent?

The government will grant hundreds of new licences to extract oil and gas from the North Sea, Rishi Sunak said on Monday. The initial decision was announced last year, but Mr Sunak reiterated the plan this week alongside “millions of pounds” for so-called “carbon capture and storage” technology...

www.channel4.com

 

[johnb80]

So I think this thread as now gone completely off subject which was which is cheaper to run on journeys. Petrol hybrid of BEV.

Yesterday this article from channel 4s
Factcheck appeared and it just about covers the lot including cost and time scales about the proposed expansion of the oil and gas fields under our oceans there will be no gain from it for a long time to come if any at all for us here in the UK.

Would new North Sea oil and gas make Britain more energy independent?

The government will grant hundreds of new licences to extract oil and gas from the North Sea, Rishi Sunak said on Monday. The initial decision was announced last year, but Mr Sunak reiterated the plan this week alongside “millions of pounds” for so-called “carbon capture and storage” technology...

www.channel4.com

A lot in the article is true, I dont however agree that we should halt the licences, it's investing in the future. So far as timescales go, I was employed as an ROV Senior Pilot Technician by a well known company. My last project was in the Black Sea in Romania (glad i'm there now!!). We drilled 3 wells in various positions and struck oil and gas in good quantities. Time taken for the exploration, 6 months. It wouldnt take long to get a production rig onto the wells or even an FPSO so 28 years is complete rubbish IMHO.
The real solution as far as pricing goes is for the government to drill the field themselves, an oil version of the National Coal Board. Our infrastructure - energy, communications, oil, gas, water should never have been privatised.

 

[Les burrows]

John I can see and understand what your saying but the Uk government has not got an oil and gas version of the NCB never will have so who will the contracts to do this work go to Shell or BP or which other none British company.
38 years is a long way away I agree but even it that was 5or10 years is still to long in my view action is need now and instead of giving vast sums of money to the likes I have listed above they could do better to improve incentives here for people to invest in solar PV home batteries and the take up of EV transport ether of public or private means.
I’m sorry John fossil fuel in dead in the water green electricity is our future and thankfully we now have the technology to go along that route.
The next time something kicks off in the world that sends fossils fuels over £2 per litre the out cry for EV will go through the roof and we need the infrastructure to support it.
In homes heat pumps are to replace fossil fuel boilers what do heat pumps use electricity.
If the climate conditions keep warming as they are more and more of us will want A/C in our homes here in the UK it also runs on electricity the list goes on even the fossil fuel boilers we have today can’t run without electricity it’s the only way out of this mess and we need to improve the ways we produce and provide it to our way of life.
Les

 

[johnb80]

John I can see and understand what your saying but the Uk government has not got an oil and gas version of the NCB never will have so who will the contracts to do this work go to Shell or BP or which other none British company.

I said the government SHOULD start exploration with a nationalised company so that the oil and gas doesnt have to be sold on the open market and can be used within the UK. The vast profits that the oil companies are enjoying could be used by the government for the benefit of the UK.

38 years is a long way away I agree but even it that was 5or10 years is still to long in my view action is need now and instead of giving vast sums of money to the likes I have listed above they could do better to improve incentives here for people to invest in solar PV home batteries and the take up of EV transport ether of public or private means.

That doesnt resolve the issue though does it, energy security we would still be vulnerable.

I’m sorry John fossil fuel in dead in the water green electricity is our future and thankfully we now have the technology to go along that route.

Problem is we dont really just yet. You cant rely on solar or wind due to weather conditions, nuclear is a way off. It seems odd to me that we have nuclear submarines which clearly have a small nuclear reactor onboard, why can we not put these into operation straight away without building massive infrastructure around them. Surely the design is tried and tested over many years.

The next time something kicks off in the world that sends fossils fuels over £2 per litre the out cry for EV will go through the roof and we need the infrastructure to support it.

We will, youre right but were not going to get there any time soon with the current renewables.

In homes heat pumps are to replace fossil fuel boilers what do heat pumps use electricity.
If the climate conditions keep warming as they are more and more of us will want A/C in our homes here in the UK it also runs on electricity the list goes on even the fossil fuel boilers we have today can’t run without electricity it’s the only way out of this mess and we need to improve the ways we produce and provide it to our way of life.

Absolutely agree and I'm already at that stage with Solar, Batteries, Heatpumps etc all in operation. Heatpumps Ive had and used for over 30 years, I'm already sold on the idea. Solar and batteries 2 years when energy prices rocketed, no way could I bring myself to pay 40+p per kWH.

 

[tsedge]

It seems odd to me that we have nuclear submarines which clearly have a small nuclear reactor onboard, why can we not put these into operation straight away without building massive infrastructure around them. Surely the design is tried and tested over many years.

Submarine reactors are designed for military marine operation, low output power (compared to typical civilian power stations), use highly enriched uranium and cost a lot for their size. They also have a different regulator. In principle a design can be evolved which could be used in this way but in practice it isn't remotely an off-the-shelf "bolt some of these in exercise". This project is underway with the RR small modular reactor concept (SMR).

 

[johnb80]

This project is underway with the RR small modular reactor concept (SMR).

That was my thinking that the reactors used in submarines could be developed further to be something like the RR SMR instead of reinventing the wheel.

Have a look at this......

 

[tsedge]

That was my thinking that the reactors used in submarines could be developed further to be something like the RR SMR instead of reinventing the wheel.

My understanding is that this is exactly what the RR SMR project is doing.

 

[Les burrows]

I said the government SHOULD start exploration with a nationalised company so that the oil and gas doesnt have to be sold on the open market and can be used within the UK. The vast profits that the oil companies are enjoying could be used by the government for the benefit of the UK.

Nationalisation never worked really that is why we turned away from most of it. Because governments did not know how to run it and the same applies here they wouldn’t have a clue and we would have yet another government dept being pay for doing nothing.
The vast profits being made by oil and gas companies should be being enjoy now and if there where proper tax’s on the profits in place now, but of course, not until they have paid the shareholders many of which are in government office and like There massive dividends we would be enjoying them.

That doesnt resolve the issue though does it, energy security we would still be vulnerable.

Not quite as much I don’t think if proper subsidies will put into place so that people could have HOME batteries and solar PV in there own homes to charge them and generate the electricity where it’s being used.
All new buildings of many types homes warehouse factories hospitals should have solar PV as standard without any question there is no reason not to

Problem is we dont really just yet. You cant rely on solar or wind due to weather conditions, nuclear is a way off. It seems odd to me that we have nuclear submarines which clearly have a small nuclear reactor onboard, why can we not put these into operation straight away without building massive infrastructure around them. Surely the design is tried and tested over many years.

Well John I know nothing about submarines what I do know is we have 2 MG vehicles which can do V2L and there are already some that can do V2G but as far as I know can’t be used as yet in the UK but V2H will I’m sure be available very soon as it’s just an extension of V2L really so if money is spent on massive battery storage I’m sure we could alleviate any worries about there being a few days with little or no wind and I don’t see a time where there wouldn’t be some wind or solar some where in these islands of ours to be honest and when there is much than we need we can store it if we build the batteries.


We will, youre right but were not going to get there any time soon with the current renewables.

Which is why we need to get on with installing more not drilling for oil and gas costing billons.

Absolutely agree and I'm already at that stage with Solar, Batteries, Heatpumps etc all in operation. Heatpumps Ive had and used for over 30 years, I'm already sold on the idea. Solar and batteries 2 years when energy prices rocketed, no way could I bring myself to pay 40+p per kWH.

Well John I’m glad we agree on something no body wants to be paying 40+ p KWH by my god some got very close to it, in fack I think some are doing so to get a time of use tariff so has to charge batteries and EVs and hopefully get enough in them hours of cheap electricity to stop them paying that 40+p
I’m not anti Tory and yes what suNak has said is very true about importing stuff when we might have it on or doorstep and can supply ourselves and he’s right about deducing the co2 if where not bring gas from the other side of the oceans to burn here but we have only an educated guess as to how long it will last and it does nothing to help our air quality or Global warming if we keep burn this stuff no matter where it comes from, the sun the wind and the waves are never ending so we need to enhance the methods we have to harvest them, and Stop Burning stuff. ASAP.
Les

 

[Lovemyev]

Great debate, that could go on for ever.
But we have diffed off topic ( like we do ) once again folks .

 

[Les burrows]

Great debate, that could go on for ever.
But we have diffed off topic ( like we do ) once again folks .

Jeff I said exactly this at #42
Les

 

[Malcolm Anderson]

I think the point is we could become energy independent without fossil fuels but it would take decades of heavy investment to achieve that and in the meantime we will be using a lot of oil and gas whether we like it or not, so why not exploit what we have (which also increases short term energy security).

Norway does exactly this. They don't need their oil and gas but they heavily exploit in order to sell to others, drive exports and increase their sovereign wealth fund which benefits the whole community.

I don't think it matters what people believe about global warming, this isn't going to change fast under any circumstances.

This lie about the new oil licenses must be exposed, the oil they will get from these new wells will go straight onto the world market it will NOT be just for us to use. How long will the developement of these wells take, will they help us now, no. This Government has held up the transition away from Fossil fuels on purpose since 2012, don’t you remember D Cameron saying we’ll get rid of the green crap? That’s 10yrs wasted already. You posted about Norway’s S.W.Fund, what did our government do with our Oil? They sold it off, here’s the Hansard report from Monday 22 Nov 1982 https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commo.../4b645849-27e4-4ec0-9ab9-5f4d03603cee/Britoil. We just need to develope the new tech asap, the climate anomalies are not going to lessen of their own accord, we need to act now. Funny isnt it when we need to start a war over Oil security we can find the money no problem at all, of course the thousands of innocent civilians died, do you remeber the little Iraq boy who had his legs and arms blown off. Lets just do what our planet needs for all our futures.

 

[Malcolm Anderson]

Hi again Malcolm
So in answer to you question my MK1 MG5 was an SR with a claimed range of 214 miles and my new car now is the MG5 Trophy with a claimed range of 230-235 miles but what I can say is this the MK1 LR had a range of 250 miles if my memory is right, so my new car is already down by 15-20 miles in the official figures, it’s the same battery size and motor but the loss I believe is due to the bigger wheels 17 inch, over 16 inch, this I’m sure is very true because on the excite model they have kept the wheels at 16 inch and the range is 250 miles exactly the same as the MK1 5.

Now the other day I did a post on my currant trip for someone with a similar question it’s in the thread Called
Viewing the MG 5 EV facelifted Trophy long range #7 so take a peak at that.
Your friends Mercedes why anyone buys a hi bird its beyond me yes they had a place for a very short time in my book when only a few full EVs gen1 24kw leafs and early Zoe’s about a 100 mile range if your lucky, but today I do not see any point in them at all 15-40 miles on battery for most and still with an engine that needs petrol and oil and expensive services.
The other thing I don’t like never have, is you leave home on a cold morning on the battery great you drive a few miles hit the open road or M way put your toe down a bit and a stone cold engine has to fire up at 70 miles per hour as the battery depletes no good at all for the engine and the pollution levels.

I have watch I think about every video available on YT and others Tesla Powerwall fantastic bit of kit, my son has one on his solar edge PV set up and as you say today most battery’s are around £1000 per kWh I have had my solar PV 3.84 KWs around 13 years now and if it went dead tomorrow I would not hesitate in having it replace I have said my times the best investment I have ever made,
The wife says what about me then I reply the solar has been with me for 13 years paid me back the cost after around 6 and as paid me every day since I think, you my love I have had you for over 55 years and you still costing me money
LOL.
Your quite right something has to change and soon and then I have just watch the News tonight to see our prime minister as change is mind again and get drilling for more OIL and Gas are we wasting our time idiots the lot of them.
Les

Thanks for the info Les I will be sticking with the Gen1, but you never know. It will take time for us to transition so it’s a shame our Government decided to slow down any attempt to modernise our energy needs over 10yrs ago. Cameron said in 2012 ’We are going to get rid of the green crap’ and 0n Sept 2013 George Osborne said 'he didn’t NOT want Britain to be a world-leader in fighting climate change because the UK should not price itself out of international energy markets by placing too heavy an environmental burden on suppliers’.
Any way I’ll not keep going on, the effects are just starting to ramp up so it will be hard to miss soon even for the deniers. Here’s a short comedy sketch that might make you laugh from 9yrs ago there is a bit of language. a statistically correct climate change debate, its 4 mins long.

 

[tsedge]

Malcolm, I realise you hold your beliefs very strongly and I respect that.

I wasn't making an argument about climate change, simply pointing to the reality that we use oil and gas in many many aspects of our lives, including food production and steel making to name a couple (but there are many many more).

Even in transport it will take decades to transition to alternatives and in some areas (eg aircraft) the technology is not available yet. Outside transport there are many areas without practical alternatives yet.

Whether we like it or not, there can be no sudden change. That means we still need to invest in oil and gas or we'll have huge price rises that only impoverish the poor, which is morally unacceptable. To ignore our own resources and depend on other countries to do it for us is a folly since we have seen how we cannot rely on their good will in times of crisis (eg Ukraine war raising energy prices).

I am in favour of transitioning to more sustainable energy sources. I am not in favour of pretending that's possible quickly and hiding the reality of our deep economic dependence on oil and gas.

If we were more honest about this we could actually get more support for long term initiatives and properly debate them - whereas the current "sky is falling" narratives are just putting people off engaging or changing their behaviour.

 

[Les burrows]

Why can it not be left in the gas field under the sea, it's stored there, no problem.

I agree with that Johnb80 I don’t see the point of pumping it out to burn and then pumping it’s remains Co2 back under the sea bed so yes I agree do not bother and let’s spend the billons on renewables that should last much longer and be far safer for us all.
Les

 

[Malcolm Anderson]

Malcolm, I realise you hold your beliefs very strongly and I respect that.

I wasn't making an argument about climate change, simply pointing to the reality that we use oil and gas in many many aspects of our lives, including food production and steel making to name a couple (but there are many many more).

Even in transport it will take decades to transition to alternatives and in some areas (eg aircraft) the technology is not available yet. Outside transport there are many areas without practical alternatives yet.

Whether we like it or not, there can be no sudden change. That means we still need to invest in oil and gas or we'll have huge price rises that only impoverish the poor, which is morally unacceptable. To ignore our own resources and depend on other countries to do it for us is a folly since we have seen how we cannot rely on their good will in times of crisis (eg Ukraine war raising energy prices).

I am in favour of transitioning to more sustainable energy sources. I am not in favour of pretending that's possible quickly and hiding the reality of our deep economic dependence on oil and gas.

If we were more honest about this we could actually get more support for long term initiatives and properly debate them - whereas the current "sky is falling" narratives are just putting people off engaging or changing their behaviour.

Hi thanks for the reply. Its not a belief Tsedge is it? I agree that it will take time to change over but we were already moving in the right direction in 2010. Then the present government promised to be the greenest government ever but that lasted just 2yrs. Do you remember D. Cameron was at a photo shoot driving a tiny EV called a ‘G-Wiz’, his catchphrase was ‘Vote blue, go Green’ it was just another lie. Our children’s futures, lost a decade of time for us to change our ways, we must not let this carry on by accepting the fossil fuel companies lobbying and their bought and paid for Media. (£1.3 donation to the tory party, Donors with fossil fuel links helped fund Rishi Sunak’s race for No 10. Over a quarter of the £530,000 donated was from supporters with interests in oil, gas. P.M. L.Truss registered 21 donations to her campaign. The largest single sum came from Fitriani Hay the wife of James Hay, who is a former BP executive. She gifted Truss £100,000) The sooner we really start to work on the problem the better for all our sakes. Take care Malc

Screeching U Turn alert.

 

[Les burrows]

For them that can might be a good idea to get down there.
Les

 

[prospectivebuyer]

7.5p overnight is only actual if day rate is no higher than std rate.

What do you mean? I’ve just signed up to octopus to get this tariff.

Can I not fix the day and night rate so they are always the same?

 

[Gomev]

What do you mean? I’ve just signed up to octopus to get this tariff.

Can I not fix the day and night rate so they are always the same?

Octopus Go or Intelligent Octopus are set rates so they are always the same.....until they change.
They are not a fixed tariff for a set period of time e.g. 1 year, as witnessed from today the Go rate dropped by 0.5p for the overnight rate. They are variable and can change at any time.

 

[prospectivebuyer]

Octopus Go or Intelligent Octopus are set rates so they are always the same.....until they change.
They are not a fixed tariff for a set period of time e.g. 1 year, as witnessed from today the Go rate dropped by 0.5p for the overnight rate. They are variable and can change at any time.

Fair enough!

So what does he mean by “7.5p overnight is only actual if day rate is no higher than std rate.”

As far as I’m aware I’m getting 7.5p overnight until they say otherwise