Europe scraps 2035 new ICE car sales ban

[Fogey]

Deleted.

 

[tsedge]

https://eepublicdownloads.entsoe.eu/clean-documents/tyndp-documents/TYNDP%202016/projects/P1005.pdf

Invest in Manchester | £300m Liquid Air Energy Storage Facility Breaks Ground

£300m Liquid Air Energy Storage Facility Breaks Ground

www.investinmanchester.com

Right - as I thought. That's about a project just breaking ground in the last few weeks that will deliver 300MWh of storage.

It is a good pilot project and will serve 500,000 homes or so. But that is nothing like TWh - that's the long term potential they've outlined, but not operational today.

I'm hopeful they will get there in time, but that isn't available today.

 

[Gadget Geek]

Yes, my mistake, I misread the information.
However, the government are funding another 27TWh air storage projects, and the beauty of this technology is it's off the shelf parts already readily available so no R&D costs or time.

 

[decrep]

Humans can and will adapt , populations can move freely around the world without restrictions to get a better life after droughts, wildfires or flooding have destroyed their indigenous lands into the welcoming arms of their new hosts. What !!!

Where on earth did that come from???? Talk about not living in the real World.

 

[MG Clive]

Where on earth did that come from???? Talk about not living in the real World.

I wouldn't take that comment too seriously mate.

 

[Bam Bam]

e-fuels are just as unsustainable as fossil fuels, just in a different way.

What the biofuels industry doesn’t want you to know – biofuelwatch

I agree e-fuels are a terrible idea.

Biofuels are a scandal - US corn being used to supplement "gasoline" which means huge amount of land and water are being used to power inefficient vehicles. And it's all to push up the income for US farmers/landowners.

Though I should say I was suggesting synthetic e-fuels made from water and air (plus a huge amount of electricity)...

What is synthetic e-fuel?

Sales of new petrol and diesel cars are set to be banned before long - could synthetic fuel give them a reprieve?

www.carwow.co.uk

Another terrible idea of course, but if people have to choose between this and battery and they would get it very quickly.

 

[Bam Bam]

Since this is an EV-focused site I just thought I would mention that EVs are very helpful dealing with the intermittency of renewables.

Octopus are showing the way with their 'greener nights' score and Agile tariff which shows the link between renewable surplus and low prices.

BEVs have a huge amount of storage capacity and can mop up some of that surplus.

The problem we have in the moment in the UK is that most of the wind power comes in to the North (Scotland) and East of the country but our grid network is 60 years old and is based around coal-powered plants in the middle of the country.

Essentially the wires aren't always thick enough to get the power from where it is being generated to where it is needed and therefore companies are paid to turn off wind turbines.

The govt. are VERY aware of this and are trying to prioritise projects to ease these bottlenecks, though they take time.

On the other hand, one sensible solution was to have locational pricing like other long-thin countries do, but the government decided against this. Same in Germany for similar reasons. D'oh.

Batteries (at home, at grid level, or in cars) help with the bottlenecks, because they can be charged/discharged when the grid can't cope.

 

[Gadget Geek]

And now the Tories are threatening to scrap the new ICE sales ban if they win the next election. Don't they ever learn? The automotive industry spends millions of pounds setting up new production lines and then a new government overturns what the previous encumbents started. The industry have said they want stability.

I wonder who could be a major contibutor to the Conservative Party . . . let me think . . .

 

[Ian Key]

They might find the big car manufacturers have already made plans to cease production of ICE powered cars by 2035 so the only diesel and petrol powered cars will be from small specialist makers which will be beyond the means of most people.

 

[EvTek23]

Yep, it's quite a slow process for manufacturers to change to an EV production line. They were all told some 8 to 10 years ago about the petrol and diesel ban, and although the dates might have changed to and from 2030/2035 there was still an immanent ban. Most have reacted to that and have EV's in the range. Ford is going into it big time now with the scrapping of the Fiesta and Focus. I think the only car they currently produce is the Puma with ICE, the rest of it's offerings are EV's now with the Explorer, Capri and MachE.
It's been a fascinating discussion over this subject with so many passionate views. I thank all those who have taken part.

 

[Gadget Geek]

Governments might be backtracking and bowing to pressure from their oil industry sponsors, but by the look of this report from Jack, the motor industry isn't.

 

[Bam Bam]

Governments might be backtracking and bowing to pressure from their oil industry sponsors, but by the look of this report from Jack, the motor industry isn't.

It is going to fall to consumers to make the switch.

As more people better understand the climate consequences and realise that EVs are both better and cheaper the uptake will increase.

It is just sad that it will take much longer than it should due to misinformation and FUD. Sigh.

 

[JohnV6]

Synthetic petrol is carbon neutral and not scrapping the petrol infrastructure and ice cars makes sense.

We need both options

 

[Bam Bam]

Synthetic petrol is carbon neutral and not scrapping the petrol infrastructure and ice cars makes sense.

We need both options

I would be reasonably happy with a ban on petrol unless it was made out of air and water using surplus renewable energy.

Doesn't do anything about local air pollution and the carbon ends up back in the atmosphere but at least it isn't drawing more carbon from the ground.

The thing is that it means using synthetic petrol that costs 3x traditional petrol. I can imagine a backlash, but I think it should be made clear: that is the alternative.

 

[T1 Terry]

Synthetic petrol is carbon neutral and not scrapping the petrol infrastructure and ice cars makes sense.

We need both options

Why? They could keep diesel engines and run them on synthetic methane, or petrol engines on hydrogen made the carbon dioxide free method
But, it doesn't stop there, heat sea water to 2,500*C and it spits to hydrogen and oxygen, under pressure, the remaining salt will remain as a liquid, storing that heat. The oxygen and hydrogen is pumped under pressure to hold the temperature above 2500*C so it doesn't recombine, and feed it back into the ignition chamber to maintain the heating process. The super heated steam released as a result of burning this water/oxygen mix, can be used to preheat the salt water, split methane into hydrogen and drive multi stage turbines to generate electricity, leaving water as a by product .....
There are so many valuable products produced along the way, this could eventually be cheaper than petroleum based fuels and make them obsolete .... along with coal to coke to produce iron in a blast furnace and yet another area for the use of molten salt ..... generating oxygen for the production of basic oxygen steel for instance, the electrolytic production of copper ..... the uses go on and on .....

What are the chances of the petroleum industry and fossil fuel industries in general, allowing such a system being established ......

We did get EVs in the end so .......

T1 Terry

 

[Gadget Geek]

In the end it will be economics which determine the winners, which is why solar, wind and BEV's are the technologies which are in the lead (despite what a certain orange man baby says).

 

[5teep]

Why? They could keep diesel engines and run them on synthetic methane, or petrol engines on hydrogen made the carbon dioxide free method
But, it doesn't stop there, heat sea water to 2,500*C and it spits to hydrogen and oxygen, under pressure, the remaining salt will remain as a liquid, storing that heat. The oxygen and hydrogen is pumped under pressure to hold the temperature above 2500*C so it doesn't recombine, and feed it back into the ignition chamber to maintain the heating process. The super heated steam released as a result of burning this water/oxygen mix, can be used to preheat the salt water, split methane into hydrogen and drive multi stage turbines to generate electricity, leaving water as a by product .....
There are so many valuable products produced along the way, this could eventually be cheaper than petroleum based fuels and make them obsolete .... along with coal to coke to produce iron in a blast furnace and yet another area for the use of molten salt ..... generating oxygen for the production of basic oxygen steel for instance, the electrolytic production of copper ..... the uses go on and on .....

What are the chances of the petroleum industry and fossil fuel industries in general, allowing such a system being established ......

We did get EVs in the end so .......

T1 Terry

The question is, "who is going to pay to build the infrastructure needed to create all the Hydrogen, transport and store it?"

 

[EVsince2016]

Synthetic petrol is carbon neutral and not scrapping the petrol infrastructure and ice cars makes sense.

We need both options

Apart from a few major practicability issues, well quite a few, too long to list here.

 

[T1 Terry]

The question is, "who is going to pay to build the infrastructure needed to create all the Hydrogen, transport and store it?"

If they plan to set up synthetic fuel manufacture, then maybe the petroleum industry will see this as a way to save themselves from the fate the buggy whip makers suffered.
That and philanthropists that really do want to move to a sustainable existence .... World govts investing in something positive rather than an arms race .... I might be dreaming, but I still have hope that humanity can see through the greed and find a way forward ..... Maybe this pyrolysis method could be used to break down carbon dioxide into hard carbon and release oxygen .... again, dreaming .... but I'm feeling confident the human race can see a way to repair the damage

T1 Terry

 

[decrep]

.. but I'm feeling confident the human race can see a way to repair the damage

T1 Terry

Hope your confidence isn't misplaced Terry!!!!!
I believe it's certainly possible, but current events leave me worried