Lightweight e-bikes, capabilities and transport

[T1 Terry]

We have a similar effect in software engineering, sometimes called "creature feep".

Isn't a feature just a program error wearing fancy clothes?

T1 Terry

 

[Rolfe]

They look like back and wrist killer handlebars and that brace bar will be torture when the knees are ready to sit you on ground for a rest ....
Is it a pedal crank motor rather than a rear wheel drive motor?

T1 Terry

The handlebars on all the bikes of that sort are much the same and they look OK to me. Maybe it's the angle of the photo. The only exception is that ultra-light-weight Ribble and they are much much worse. Ditto the crossbar. The mountain bikes are all like that and the standoff height on that one (not the lowest point though) is given as 775 mm, which isn't as low as I'd like but it's manageable. The exception again is the ultra-light-weight Ribble, which has an almost horizontal crossbar and just, no.

I don't understand about the motor thing, but I think it's a pedal crank. If you want to know more about it, look here.

https://www.orbea.com/gb-en/ebikes/mountain/urrun/

It looks like a very small sprocket on the crank, more pedalling torque but a low actual speed when pedalling .... if it was a rear wheel motor that only powered the motor compared to pedal speed, then the faster pedalling requiring less effort would feel very similar ..... the ratio of pedal effort to climbing ability would give a sense of better motor torque

T1 Terry

It's fine. I'm looking for torque rather than speed. The assist speed is limited to 25 kph anyway so you're not allowed to go speeding unless you're Superman or going downhill. What I want this for is getting up hills without using the GOAP gear.

 

[decrep]

The difference between motor at the crank and motor on the wheel, is that on the crank, the motor has full use of the gears, where as on the wheel it doesn't. So motor torque at the wheel is increased significantly by being on the crank, (providing you change down of course).

 

[T1 Terry]

The handlebars on all the bikes of that sort are much the same and they look OK to me. Maybe it's the angle of the photo. The only exception is that ultra-light-weight Ribble and they are much much worse. Ditto the crossbar. The mountain bikes are all like that and the standoff height on that one (not the lowest point though) is given as 775 mm, which isn't as low as I'd like but it's manageable. The exception again is the ultra-light-weight Ribble, which has an almost horizontal crossbar and just, no.

I don't understand about the motor thing, but I think it's a pedal crank. If you want to know more about it, look here.

https://www.orbea.com/gb-en/ebikes/mountain/urrun/

It's fine. I'm looking for torque rather than speed. The assist speed is limited to 25 kph anyway so you're not allowed to go speeding unless you're Superman or going downhill. What I want this for is getting up hills without using the GOAP gear.

Yes, it a pedal crank drive, can't get over how small that pedal sprocket is, 1st gear would be near impossible to use from the standing still position and tricky not to lift the front wheel when pedalling hard in 1st gear either ..... I had that problem with my non power assisted bike when doing the Sydney to Gong rides through the nation park sections .... attempt to start off on a hill in 1st gear required getting off the seat and leaning over the handlebars, but I was a lot fitter and 25 yrs younger then as well

Without the twist grip throttle, I doubt I could even get moving now ....

T1 Terry

 

[Archev]

The handlebars on all the bikes of that sort are much the same and they look OK to me. Maybe it's the angle of the photo. The only exception is that ultra-light-weight Ribble and they are much much worse. Ditto the crossbar. The mountain bikes are all like that and the standoff height on that one (not the lowest point though) is given as 775 mm, which isn't as low as I'd like but it's manageable. The exception again is the ultra-light-weight Ribble, which has an almost horizontal crossbar and just, no.

I don't understand about the motor thing, but I think it's a pedal crank. If you want to know more about it, look here.

https://www.orbea.com/gb-en/ebikes/mountain/urrun/

It's fine. I'm looking for torque rather than speed. The assist speed is limited to 25 kph anyway so you're not allowed to go speeding unless you're Superman or going downhill. What I want this for is getting up hills without using the GOAP gear.

Check again the bike I rented in Aviemore.

Crank motor and virtually equal size sprockets. So it wasn’t my legs that powered it up the side of buildings and made it so easy to lay skid marks on take off.

 

[Rolfe]

Ladies and gentlemen, I think we have a winner.

I had a good look at the bike that was in stock in Edinburgh, which was an Urrun. Its actual weight was 21 kg but that's better than just about all the competitors (they all fudge their stated weights by saying without pedals and with tubeless tyres and so on). It was a medium size so the small, which would fit me better, should be a little less. Anyway, I found I could lift the bike enough to let me upend it, or put it in the car, given a bit of effort and care.

I took it out for a wee spin round the Meadows, including some uphill and a fair bit of cobbled roads, and got on great. It's very discreet. The power isn't roaring in your face, you probably wouldn't be leaving skid-marks and doing accidental wheelies, it's just there when you want it. Of course there's nothing in central Edinburgh with the sort of gradient that's prompting me to get a bike like this - Hilda could have managed everything - but hey, 85 Nm. Also, when I stopped to walk the bike down a couple of steps (there were pedestrians around so I thought I better not try to ride down) I found I had dismounted easily despite the stand-off height, and it being the bigger frame.

It was a very comfortable ride, especially over the cobbles. Hilda would have been shaking my fillings loose (which would have been a bad idea as I lost a temporary crown while eating lunch in the Canongate), but this bike just absorbed everything, as the front shocks are meant to do of course. It was easy to handle, and although the sheer size was slightly unnerving when standing beside it, it felt great to ride.

So I got back to the shop, when I realised I was in the top gear without having realised it. I started talking about exactly which model (there are three in the Urrun range with small differences) and configuration and so on. Then the shop guy said, just listening to what you're saying, have you considered the Kemen? No I hadn't, because I'd been looking at the mountain bike range, and the Kemen is listed under urban bikes. I didn't think an urban bike was what I wanted. But, said the nice man, the Kemen is almost the same bike as the Urrun, but tweaked in all the directions you're talking about.

So we had a quick look and I decided the best move was to go home and have a proper look at the Kemen specifications, and I started to fall in love with it on the spot.

It has a proper step-through configuration available.

Rear carrier, mudguards and prop stand, all of which are add-ons on the Urrun, are fitted as standard. As are lights and a phone mount and a USB charging lead for the phone!!! And, believe it or not, a chain guard, which was one of my gripes with Hilda but I'd come to the conclusion manufacturers were giving up on these. Also, there is an incredibly cool system that lets you vary the handlebar configuration so I should be able to get it much closer to how I want it. AND there seems to be the option of handlebars that curve backwards a bit more.

It's going to be a little bit heavier than the Urrun with these extras (although I was thinking of adding most of them to the Urrun anyway), but it's so freaking perfect that I'm determined to find a way.

There are a couple of minor downsides. The gears aren't quite so spiffy as the ones on the top-range Urrun, and the display is a bit more basic, closer to Hilda's without giving exact SoC or a speedometer. But these are small sacrifices I think.

My main remaining query is torque. The Urrun is stated up-front to have a maximum of 85 Nm, but the specs for the Kemen are strangely silent on that point. The shop guy said it was the same motor and battery so surely it would be the same, then he said he'd found it, 85 Nm, but I can't find the reference. I need to get this cleared up before I finally make up my mind.

ETA: I found it, deep within the 608-page specifications pdf that I had to download as it wouldn't open in the frame. 85 Nm. So, slightly less spiffy gears and a less informative screen on the handlebars versus all the advantages. Hard decision. Not. I just have to email the manufacturer again to make sure the weight of this bike isn't outrageously higher than the one I saw in the shop.

 

[Archev]

Ladies and gentlemen, I think we have a winner.

View attachment 45382

I had a good look at the bike that was in stock in Edinburgh, which was an Urrun. Its actual weight was 21 kg but that's better than just about all the competitors (they all fudge their stated weights by saying without pedals and with tubeless tyres and so on). It was a medium size so the small, which would fit me better, should be a little less. Anyway, I found I could lift the bike enough to let me upend it, or put it in the car, given a bit of effort and care.

I took it out for a wee spin round the Meadows, including some uphill and a fair bit of cobbled roads, and got on great. It's very discreet. The power isn't roaring in your face, you probably wouldn't be leaving skid-marks and doing accidental wheelies, it's just there when you want it. Of course there's nothing in central Edinburgh with the sort of gradient that's prompting me to get a bike like this - Hilda could have managed everything - but hey, 85 Nm. Also, when I stopped to walk the bike down a couple of steps (there were pedestrians around so I thought I better not try to ride down) I found I had dismounted easily despite the stand-off height, and it being the bigger frame.

It was a very comfortable ride, especially over the cobbles. Hilda would have been shaking my fillings loose (which would have been a bad idea as I lost a temporary crown while eating lunch in the Canongate), but this bike just absorbed everything, as the front shocks are meant to do of course. It was easy to handle, and although the sheer size was slightly unnerving when standing beside it, it felt great to ride.

So I got back to the shop, when I realised I was in the top gear without having realised it. I started talking about exactly which model (there are three in the Urrun range with small differences) and configuration and so on. Then the shop guy said, just listening to what you're saying, have you considered the Kemen? No I hadn't, because I'd been looking at the mountain bike range, and the Kemen is listed under urban bikes. I didn't think an urban bike was what I wanted. But, said the nice man, the Kemen is almost the same bike as the Urrun, but tweaked in all the directions you're talking about.

So we had a quick look and I decided the best move was to go home and have a proper look at the Kemen specifications, and I started to fall in love with it on the spot.

It has a proper step-through configuration available.

Rear carrier, mudguards and prop stand, all of which are add-ons on the Urrun, are fitted as standard. As are lights and a phone mount and a USB charging lead for the phone!!! And, believe it or not, a chain guard, which was one of my gripes with Hilda but I'd come to the conclusion manufacturers were giving up on these. Also, there is an incredibly cool system that lets you vary the handlebar configuration so I should be able to get it much closer to how I want it. AND there seems to be the option of handlebars that curve backwards a bit more.

It's going to be a little bit heavier than the Urrun with these extras (although I was thinking of adding most of them to the Urrun anyway), but it's so freaking perfect that I'm determined to find a way.

There are a couple of minor downsides. The gears aren't quite so spiffy as the ones on the top-range Urrun, and the display is a bit more basic, closer to Hilda's without giving exact SoC or a speedometer. But these are small sacrifices I think.

My main remaining query is torque. The Urrun is stated up-front to have a maximum of 85 Nm, but the specs for the Kemen are strangely silent on that point. The shop guy said it was the same motor and battery so surely it would be the same, then he said he'd found it, 85 Nm, but I can't find the reference. I need to get this cleared up before I finally make up my mind.

ETA: I found it, deep within the 608-page specifications pdf that I had to download as it wouldn't open in the frame. 85 Nm. So, slightly less spiffy gears and a less informative screen on the handlebars versus all the advantages. Hard decision. Not. I just have to email the manufacturer again to make sure the weight of this bike isn't outrageously higher than the one I saw in the shop.

Quite a shopping trip.

 

[T1 Terry]

Ladies and gentlemen, I think we have a winner.

View attachment 45382

I had a good look at the bike that was in stock in Edinburgh, which was an Urrun. Its actual weight was 21 kg but that's better than just about all the competitors (they all fudge their stated weights by saying without pedals and with tubeless tyres and so on). It was a medium size so the small, which would fit me better, should be a little less. Anyway, I found I could lift the bike enough to let me upend it, or put it in the car, given a bit of effort and care.

I took it out for a wee spin round the Meadows, including some uphill and a fair bit of cobbled roads, and got on great. It's very discreet. The power isn't roaring in your face, you probably wouldn't be leaving skid-marks and doing accidental wheelies, it's just there when you want it. Of course there's nothing in central Edinburgh with the sort of gradient that's prompting me to get a bike like this - Hilda could have managed everything - but hey, 85 Nm. Also, when I stopped to walk the bike down a couple of steps (there were pedestrians around so I thought I better not try to ride down) I found I had dismounted easily despite the stand-off height, and it being the bigger frame.

It was a very comfortable ride, especially over the cobbles. Hilda would have been shaking my fillings loose (which would have been a bad idea as I lost a temporary crown while eating lunch in the Canongate), but this bike just absorbed everything, as the front shocks are meant to do of course. It was easy to handle, and although the sheer size was slightly unnerving when standing beside it, it felt great to ride.

So I got back to the shop, when I realised I was in the top gear without having realised it. I started talking about exactly which model (there are three in the Urrun range with small differences) and configuration and so on. Then the shop guy said, just listening to what you're saying, have you considered the Kemen? No I hadn't, because I'd been looking at the mountain bike range, and the Kemen is listed under urban bikes. I didn't think an urban bike was what I wanted. But, said the nice man, the Kemen is almost the same bike as the Urrun, but tweaked in all the directions you're talking about.

So we had a quick look and I decided the best move was to go home and have a proper look at the Kemen specifications, and I started to fall in love with it on the spot.

It has a proper step-through configuration available.

Rear carrier, mudguards and prop stand, all of which are add-ons on the Urrun, are fitted as standard. As are lights and a phone mount and a USB charging lead for the phone!!! And, believe it or not, a chain guard, which was one of my gripes with Hilda but I'd come to the conclusion manufacturers were giving up on these. Also, there is an incredibly cool system that lets you vary the handlebar configuration so I should be able to get it much closer to how I want it. AND there seems to be the option of handlebars that curve backwards a bit more.

It's going to be a little bit heavier than the Urrun with these extras (although I was thinking of adding most of them to the Urrun anyway), but it's so freaking perfect that I'm determined to find a way.

There are a couple of minor downsides. The gears aren't quite so spiffy as the ones on the top-range Urrun, and the display is a bit more basic, closer to Hilda's without giving exact SoC or a speedometer. But these are small sacrifices I think.

My main remaining query is torque. The Urrun is stated up-front to have a maximum of 85 Nm, but the specs for the Kemen are strangely silent on that point. The shop guy said it was the same motor and battery so surely it would be the same, then he said he'd found it, 85 Nm, but I can't find the reference. I need to get this cleared up before I finally make up my mind.

ETA: I found it, deep within the 608-page specifications pdf that I had to download as it wouldn't open in the frame. 85 Nm. So, slightly less spiffy gears and a less informative screen on the handlebars versus all the advantages. Hard decision. Not. I just have to email the manufacturer again to make sure the weight of this bike isn't outrageously higher than the one I saw in the shop.

Does it come in Volcano Orange? Diamond Red might be a bit too fast

I think it has gone a tad further than mission creep to complete mission upgrade, no longer Hilda ver:5-3, now Mountanna ver:2-1

T1 Terry

 

[Rolfe]

Volcano orange, you say?

https://www.orbea.com/gb-en/ebikes/urban/kemen-adv/

 

[T1 Terry]

Volcano orange, you say?

https://www.orbea.com/gb-en/ebikes/urban/kemen-adv/

I like the colour, but this part caught my eye

Is there something in one of my much earlier post that was closer to the mark

T1 Terry

 

[Archev]

Volcano orange, you say?

https://www.orbea.com/gb-en/ebikes/urban/kemen-adv/

Yeah - the subdued look - lovely. There must be a fitting operatic name for a steed like that ?

 

[Rolfe]

There certainly is.

 

[Rolfe]

I like the colour, but this part caught my eye View attachment 45390

Is there something in one of my much earlier post that was closer to the mark

T1 Terry

From that photo. The bike has a simple stop mechanism to prevent the handlebars jacknifing when it's on the stand. Motorbikes have had that since forever. Why don't all bikes have that? Why haven't they had that since about 1850?

 

[Rolfe]

I was looking at the gear ratios. The Urrun is 10-51 while the Kemen is 11-50. Not a huge difference. What I can't find though is the spec on the crank wheels. (Hilda is 11-42 with a 42 crankwheel, giving her a 1:1 lowest ratio.) The Kemen may have a larger crank wheel compared to the Urrun, making it higher geared all round, surely it's in the specs somewhere.

 

[T1 Terry]

There certainly is.

Grieg? Peer Gynt ..... in reference to Hall of the Mountain King?

T1 Terry

 

[T1 Terry]

I was looking at the geat ratios. The Urrun is 10-51 while the Kemen is 11-50. Not a huge difference. What I can't find though is the spec on the crank wheels. (Hilda is 11-42 with a 42 crankwheel, giving her a 1:1 lowest ratio.) The Kemen may have a larger crank wheel compared to the Urrun, making it higher geared all round, surely it's in the specs somewhere.

Google AI says


AI Overview



The Orbea Kemen electric bike generally features a 34-tooth or 38-tooth front sprocket (chainring), depending on the specific model year and configuration.
Key Details regarding the Kemen Front Sprocket:

• System: The Orbea Kemen typically uses a Shimano EP6 or EP8 mid-drive motor system, which uses a direct-mount chainring.
• Chainring Size: Stock configurations often come with a 34T or 38T chainring, compatible with the 1x11 or 1x12 speed drivetrains designed for urban adventure and commuting.
• Sprocket Type: It generally uses a narrow-wide sprocket to help prevent the chain from falling off, often made from steel for durability.
  
  
• YouTube +3

If you are replacing the chainring, it is recommended to check the specific tooth count stamped on the back of your current chainring to ensure exact matching.

T1 Terry

 

[Rolfe]

Wait, I've got it.

The Kemen on the left is 40 whereas the Urrun on the right is 32. That is a difference. Whether it would make a significant difference to the places I want to ride I don't know though.

(So much for AI, never take an AI's word for anything.)

 

[Rolfe]

I don't know if I posted any pics from the Corrieyairack, but it's pretty similar to that hill climb in the publicity video for the Kemen.

Oh yes.

It wasn't just the lack of serious torque with Hilda, she's so lightweight that she feels too fragile for that sort of terrain. She's significantly more fragile-feeling than my non-electric Giant. That makes her great for chucking in and out of the car, and on tarred roads she rides great, but I didn't feel adequately mounted for this environment. In contrast the Urrun I rode yesterday felt like the sort of beast that wouldn't be fazed by having that under its wheels.

To be fair her wheels gripped everything I set them at and no punctures happened, but I was walking down rough slopes because I just didn't have the confidence the tyres were grippy enough. Or wide enough.

Well, there's plenty similar around here to practise on this spring.

These two pictures were taken just about five miles from my house.

I don't think I have any pictures of the Thieves' Road up to the Cauldsdale Slap, but it's rougher than this. I once did about two thirds of it on my Giant, then chucked the poor thing on to the heather and walked the rest. I rode Hilda up to the end of the tarmac on that road early last spring, took one look at the muddy mess beyond, and went home again! Might be some more pictures from there to come.

 

[Rolfe]

Come to think of it, I'm pretty sure I saw one of these volcano orange (Mars Red, actually) Kemens on Friday. I'd been to the Innerleithen bike shop to collect the Giant from its spring service (and new handlebar grips) and was sitting in the car at the T-junction with the main street of the town. I was there for a wee while because of roadworks on the main road to my right. While I was sitting there a bunch of kids/teenagers on bikes approached the main street from the other side, it's a sort of staggered junction, and also sat there waiting their turn. Two of the bikes had "Orbea" on them, and one was that red/orange colour in the Kemen videos. I'm pretty sure it had the mudguards too.

I was on my way to Glentress at the time (about five miles away) because it was listed as an Orbea dealer, and thought maybe the bikes had come from there, but there didn't seem to be any Orbea bikes at Glentress so this must just have been a random encounter.

 

[Rolfe]

They look like back and wrist killer handlebars and that brace bar will be torture when the knees are ready to sit you on ground for a rest ....
Is it a pedal crank motor rather than a rear wheel drive motor?

T1 Terry

It looks like a very small sprocket on the crank, more pedalling torque but a low actual speed when pedalling .... if it was a rear wheel motor that only powered the motor compared to pedal speed, then the faster pedalling requiring less effort would feel very similar ..... the ratio of pedal effort to climbing ability would give a sense of better motor torque

T1 Terry

I've just realised that the Kemen answers all three of your objections. It has adjustable handlebars that will not be back or wrist killers, it's a step-through with a pretty low cross-bar, and the pedal crank is 40 teeth rather than 32.