Solar and house battery installation

[DBedford]

Hi there,

All things being equal we should have our EV charging point installed by British Gas in the next few weeks and take receipt of our MG ZS. LRT. ( EV charging point may not be the best, but it’s what we are getting )

We are considering solar panels and a house battery once we move to BG’s EV tariff.

We generally consume 2700kWh/ year , typical none- washing appliance use day 7-8kWh. I’m thinking of a 3-4kW possible 10 panel installation , 5 on each face. With a 10kWh battery.

Our house is tiles facing ENE. We are in Buckinghamshire.

We have both just by retired (65) , and may move in the next few years, depending on what adult children wish to do. Should we start small and upgraded with time or no bother due to possible payback period?, so many questions.
Could anyone provide guidance on who to speak for a quote and the pros and cons of such installation.

I thank anyone we can assist, as at the moment we have a wide range of prices from a host of suppliers, and a thumping head ache.

 

[johnb80]

Hi there,

All things being equal we should have our EV charging point installed by British Gas in the next few weeks and take receipt of our MG ZS. LRT. ( EV charging point may not be the best, but it’s what we are getting )

We are considering solar panels and a house battery once we move to BG’s EV tariff.

We generally consume 2700kWh/ year , typical none- washing appliance use day 7-8kWh. I’m thinking of a 3-4kW possible 10 panel installation , 5 on each face. With a 10kWh battery.

Our house is tiles facing ENE. We are in Buckinghamshire.

We have both just by retired (65) , and may move in the next few years, depending on what adult children wish to do. Should we start small and upgraded with time or no bother due to possible payback period?, so many questions.
Could anyone provide guidance on who to speak for a quote and the pros and cons of such installation.

I thank anyone we can assist, as at the moment we have a wide range of prices from a host of suppliers, and a thumping head ache.

Forget the panels, just go for a big inverter and plenty of storage. Ditch British Gas, join Octopus Intelligent and then the maximum cost of your electricity is 7.5p kWh, charge the batteries overnight, then, run on them the rest of the day. I use 12,000 kWh per year, last year 99.2% was on off peak energy. I store the energy in 21kWh LifeP04 battery (I made my own battery).

The other point is, if you move, you can take it with you.

 

[Gadget Geek]

I have had 4kW panels on my roof for 10 years now and paid for themselves in 4 years with the Feed In Tariff (my panels do face south). I have what should be an 8kWh battery, but it is only storing 6kWh. After a complaint, I am getting a cheap upgrade to 12kWh.

I never bought into the payback period issue. If I was replacing an old boiler for a combi boiler, I wouldn't think about payback. If it saves you money now, why worry. You will get a better return on your solar/battery investment than you will in any savings account.

If you are moving, the cost of solar panels can be added to the sale price, and the battery can be taken with you.

Andy on his EVM channel did a video about this subject which might help. I know MyEnergi are doing a total intergrated system.

So far this month I have put 117kWh of solar generated electricity into my MG and filled the house battery over the last few sunny days. Otherwise I top the battery up overnight on cheap rate and use it during the day alongside solar.

 

[johnb80]

I have a neighbour and another family friend that have both sold houses with solar panels on. The houses were down valued due to the solar install. The agent said people prefer to buy without solar and then have it fitted themselves.

Seems madness to be but I can almost understand the buyers point of view.

 

[Gadget Geek]

I have a neighbour and another family friend that have both sold houses with solar panels on. The houses were down valued due to the solar install. The agent said people prefer to buy without solar and then have it fitted themselves.

Seems madness to be but I can almost understand the buyers point of view.

It's odd that estate agents on line are quoting a 4% increase in house value with panels.

Martin Lewis has a good guide on his website.

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/utilities/free-solar-panels/

 

[johnb80]

It's odd that estate agents on line are quoting a 4% increase in house value with panels.

Martin Lewis has a good guide on his website.

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/utilities/free-solar-panels/

I guess yer pays yer money and takes yer chances. If a move is imminent, maybe hold off on the panels, a 4% increase may or may not cover the panel cost.

 

[smokie]

Some don't like panels on roofs. some don't mind them. I'm fine with them.

I wouldn't be inclined to believe (and therefore trust) an estate agent trying to down-value due to panels. Being a suspicious kind, I'd be thinking that they were trying to keep the price low so they got the sale.

My panels have something quite far north of £20k tax free revenue to be had by 2037, plus whatever you save on electricity, as I'm on one of the earlier FIT schemes.

 

[wandle MG4 trophy]

I did some hard thinking about solar + battery or battery only. My usage is a bit less than yours and I was quoted for a 3.3 kWh solar system plus 5 kWh battery / and the battery only quote was for a 9.5kwh battery.
I calculated my payback time wold be anywhere between 8-12 years.
The panels would certainly last 12+ years but I was told I might need a replacement inverter during that time which would increase the payback time.

You also need to factor in loss of bank interest if you are paying for the system upfront. Interest on £11k over 8-12years at current savings rates of 3% is significant.

Factor in too, uncertainty in energy markets in the short to medium term.

Factor in the environmental impact - it’s wonderful to use less dirty electricity

Note, few solar and battery systems work during a power cut so if you want a power supply during a power cut you need to specify kit that will work in those circumstances.

My best advice is do your sums on your current consumption to see if a system is economically viable in the medium term (10+ years). If you look beyond 10+ years the investment could payback handsomely but you will be 75+

I reluctantly decided against both solar and batteries but will keep my eye out for improvements in battery technology and hopefully reductions in price. It’s a no brainer to store cheap wind-derived power during the night for use during the day but sadly the sums don’t work for me given high battery costs.

 

[Gadget Geek]

I just curious from the preceding conversations if anyone takes into account payback times from cost savings when they buy white goods? Do you buy the most affordable washing machine, or go for the one that uses the least energy and is therefore cheaper to run over its lifetime? Same for fridge/freezers, water heaters etc.

As I say, I was just curious.

 

[smokie]

Ahhh there's the anomaly. We usually end up with the one she finds most aesthetically pleasing. Not cost, efficiency or functionality. Prettiness is all that counts!!

But I absolutely see where you are coming from! (And it isn't dissimilar to the discussions on methods to eke out every last mile out of your car - whoever used to even think about that, let alone do it, with an ICE vehicle?)

The problem is we can't even predict how leccy prices will be in the autumn, let alone in ten years time. It's all very well doing your sums on today's high costs but if they fall quite dramatically (and they should, and will, when they unlink the cost of generating it with gas from the pricing) then any predictions could go right out of the window.

Man maths usually wins the day though, if you are determined enough

 

[wandle MG4 trophy]

I just curious from the preceding conversations if anyone takes into account payback times from cost savings when they buy white goods? Do you buy the most affordable washing machine, or go for the one that uses the least energy and is therefore cheaper to run over its lifetime? Same for fridge/freezers, water heaters etc.

As I say, I was just curious.

Given that the motivation for many contemplating solar/battery is to save money, then payback time has to be part of the equation.

Accountants always take into account full cost of kit including capital cost, running costs, depreciation and income generated. Why would it be different in a home environment?

Everyone is different. So if you want to be green and eventually save money then invest in solar / batteries.

If money is tight and life is full of uncertainties, do the sums and see if spending a lot of money now makes economic sense.

At my age I will outlive a cheap washing machine. I may not live the 15+ years needed to see a decent profit on panels and batteries.

 

[smokie]

At my age I will outlive a cheap washing machine. I may not live the 15+ years needed to see a decent profit on panels and batteries.

Actually that is a very good point and one I'd not really factored in. I've had panels since 2011 so that has worked well. On and off I look at batteries and re-do the sums but I'm 68 later this year so in terms of profit it's never going to be that great. You might have inadvertently saved me some time, as I think I will just completely bin the idea now!!

And anyway, I've been tasked already with keeping stuff simple going forwards, and documenting how all the sexy Home Automation and other household tech works. She obv doesn't think I've got as long left as she does - or maybe she has plans....

 

[Jomarkh]

If you are going to move then invest in a solar farm or a wind farm that pay you into your energy account.

 

[johnb80]

Note, few solar and battery systems work during a power cut so if you want a power supply during a power cut you need to specify kit that will work in those circumstances.

That's not quite true, most hybrid inverters have the EPS (Emergency Output Supply), it's just most installers don't bother to connect them up. The simplest for is to energies a 13amp socket somewhere then items that you wish to power during a power outage can be plugged into it.

My best advice is do your sums on your current consumption to see if a system is economically viable in the medium term (10+ years). If you look beyond 10+ years the investment could payback handsomely but you will be 75+

My panels and batteries were installed a year ago. My calculations were straight forward, look at the energy price increase (my fixed tariff was ending) my payments were going up from £170 per month to £540. I couldnt bring myself to pay that increase. The quote for my solar 6.7kW panels, 7kWh battery and a 6kW inverter along with energy diverter for immersion came to just under £12k. I took a loan out for 6 years at £206 per month. The real figures of payback can now be assessed having run for a year. My energy bill is actually £142 per month instead of £540, a saving of £398. The £398 more than covers the loan payments so my break even point is immediate!

I reluctantly decided against both solar and batteries but will keep my eye out for improvements in battery technology and hopefully reductions in price. It’s a no brainer to store cheap wind-derived power during the night for use during the day but sadly the sums don’t work for me given high battery costs.

Since that install, I was still taking some peak rate energy at times due to battery capacity and inverter power. I looked carefully into how to resolve this issue and I ended up making a 14kWh battery with it's own inverter housed in a small tool shed round the side of my house. This AC coupled battery charges from both solar and off peak energy resulting in all of my electricity being free (from solar) or from off peak at 7.5p kWh. The DIY approach is not difficult, all of the info is out there, it's just well hidden by many. Commercial quotes for this level of storage and inverter were in excess of £16k, this cost me less than £4200 and a bit of head scratching.

This is my little toolshed

The lower part has the batteries installed (3 shown here, each module contains 4 EVE cells).

The top half housing the inverter, the BMS and the fuses / switch gear.

This system was switched on 24th December and cooked our Christmas dinner, it has been completely untouched, just sitting there doing what it should.

Several people have now followed the above and are enjoying the same result. If you are DIY inclined, you can build such a system easily and even if you use an electrician to connect up to your grid supply, massive savings can be achieved.

 

[DBedford]

I just curious from the preceding conversations if anyone takes into account payback times from cost savings when they buy white goods? Do you buy the most affordable washing machine, or go for the one that uses the least energy and is therefore cheaper to run over its lifetime? Same for fridge/freezers, water heaters etc.

As I say, I was just curious.

I understand where you are coming from, but you buy white goods to perform a required task, which is needed. Panels and batteries are to save money and therefore the payback period ‘for me’ is important.

Forget the panels, just go for a big inverter and plenty of storage. Ditch British Gas, join Octopus Intelligent and then the maximum cost of your electricity is 7.5p kWh, charge the batteries overnight, then, run on them the rest of the day. I use 12,000 kWh per year, last year 99.2% was on off peak energy. I store the energy in 21kWh LifeP04 battery (I made my own battery).

The other point is, if you move, you can take it with you.

I would charge from Octopus BG if it was that easy, but my understanding is:

1) Each supplier needs ‘their’ own (Gen 3) smart meter installed to work with their tariff,

2) Not all EV chargers are born equal and able to be switched from one supplier to another to take benefit of their EV tariff.

That's not quite true, most hybrid inverters have the EPS (Emergency Output Supply), it's just most installers don't bother to connect them up. The simplest for is to energies a 13amp socket somewhere then items that you wish to power during a power outage can be plugged into it.


My panels and batteries were installed a year ago. My calculations were straight forward, look at the energy price increase (my fixed tariff was ending) my payments were going up from £170 per month to £540. I couldnt bring myself to pay that increase. The quote for my solar 6.7kW panels, 7kWh battery and a 6kW inverter along with energy diverter for immersion came to just under £12k. I took a loan out for 6 years at £206 per month. The real figures of payback can now be assessed having run for a year. My energy bill is actually £142 per month instead of £540, a saving of £398. The £398 more than covers the loan payments so my break even point is immediate!


Since that install, I was still taking some peak rate energy at times due to battery capacity and inverter power. I looked carefully into how to resolve this issue and I ended up making a 14kWh battery with it's own inverter housed in a small tool shed round the side of my house. This AC coupled battery charges from both solar and off peak energy resulting in all of my electricity being free (from solar) or from off peak at 7.5p kWh. The DIY approach is not difficult, all of the info is out there, it's just well hidden by many. Commercial quotes for this level of storage and inverter were in excess of £16k, this cost me less than £4200 and a bit of head scratching.

View attachment 17814
This is my little toolshed

View attachment 17815
The lower part has the batteries installed (3 shown here, each module contains 4 EVE cells).

View attachment 17816
The top half housing the inverter, the BMS and the fuses / switch gear.

This system was switched on 24th December and cooked our Christmas dinner, it has been completely untouched, just sitting there doing what it should.

Several people have now followed the above and are enjoying the same result. If you are DIY inclined, you can build such a system easily and even if you use an electrician to connect up to your grid supply, massive savings can be achieved.

Fantastic and inspiring, thank you

 

[wandle MG4 trophy]

The company I got my quote from refused to connect up the EPS on the GivEnergy battery as they said it could potentially cause problems. They wouldn’t even attach a single 3pin socket to the battery for use during a power cut

 

[DBedford]

Forget the panels, just go for a big inverter and plenty of storage. Ditch British Gas, join Octopus Intelligent and then the maximum cost of your electricity is 7.5p kWh, charge the batteries overnight, then, run on them the rest of the day. I use 12,000 kWh per year, last year 99.2% was on off peak energy. I store the energy in 21kWh LifeP04 battery (I made my own battery).

The other point is, if you move, you can take it with you.

Thank you johnb80 , sounds just like the route I should be taking, if only I had the knowledge and competence to install the batteries myself.
Thanks again.

 

[Gomev]

I would charge from Octopus BG if it was that easy, but my understanding is:

1) Each supplier needs ‘their’ own (Gen 3) smart meter installed to work with their tariff,

2) Not all EV chargers are born equal and able to be switched from one supplier to another to take benefit of their EV tariff.

re 1, SMETS2 smart meters are supposed to work with any supplier, the earlier SMETS1 stopped working as a smart meter if you switched supplier.

re 2, The EVSE (charger) is just a big electric switch, it cares not whose electrons it uses.

 

[DBedford]

re 1, SMETS2 smart meters are supposed to work with any supplier, the earlier SMETS1 stopped working as a smart meter if you switched supplier.

re 2, The EVSE (charger) is just a big electric switch, it cares not whose electrons it uses.

Re the smart meter, that’s what I thought! We have a gen 2 octopus installed and BG need to put theirs in for the tariff usage to be logged !!!

 

[Gomev]

Re the smart meter, that’s what I thought! We have a gen 2 octopus installed and BG need to put theirs in for the tariff usage to be logged !!!

How odd.

I have original BG SMETS1 meters and Octopus managed to get them to talk to them, although the gas one isn't always reliable, but apparently that's a ongoing issue not confined to me at the moment.

This is the explanation I received from Octopus....
The issue is a defect with your S1 gas meter, where it has stopped providing Half Hourly readings (and sometimes Midnight Snapshots). This is happening some point after the adoption and enrolment process from the DCC to the central database.

In regards to the process in getting this resolved, is with DCC - Who are the Data Control Company, which is the Ofgem Regulated Smart Metering database. This issue as affecting all suppliers and is escalated already.

This is a complex issue that is industry wide. Due to the amount of moving parts in this, the investigation is unfortunately very long-winded but the DCC are doing all that they can right now, unfortunately, as your supplier, there isn't anything we can do right now.