The arguments for EVs over Hydrogen fuelled cars

[Skippy]

Hydrogen reality right now. In California where hydrogen is ‘popular’ (massive incentives).

 

[Rolfe]

I suppose one could say, these are early adopters, and surely the fuel supply will get better until it's as easy as filling up with petrol is today. But then this is hydrogen, so will it? Was it ever this bad in the early days of EVs?

I would imagine not, because EVs can do one thing hydrogen cars will never be able to do and that is charge at home. If every single public chargepoint went down tomorrow a lot of people would be seriously inconvenienced for sure, but EVs would go right on running and a lot of people might not even notice.

Electricity is everywhere and we have things that will charge on a 13A plug if necessary. There are private wall-boxes all over the place whose owners would surely help out if there was a sudden massive outage of public chargepoints. And anyway, there is not going to be a sudden massive outage of public chargepoints, because, well, electricity is everywhere.

I don't know what other applications for hydrogen as fuel there might be, but I can't see this game ever winning out over one where you can charge your car at your own home while you sleep. I think they're trying to launch VHS tape five years after DVDs already got going.

Looks pretty expensive too. Where are the incentives?

 

[johnb80]

Interesting short video / news story about Hydrogen in aircraft and jet engines.

 

[CarlThom]

Er.... Not the whole story. The tank farm near Heathrow is fed by pipelines from one or two refineries (can't recall which ones - I've been asleep several times since I had dealings with the project but I think Stanlow was involved).
Fuel is then distributed to the aircraft stands via a pipework and hydrant system, which is why you don't see endless fuel tankers on the apron.

I found all this out when I got involved many years ago. The Heathrow Hydrant Company wanted to upgrade their control systems and metering (needed bloody accurate and repeatable meters for pressure too. As well as needing fiscal accuracy flow metering, they tested for leaks by shutting in sections of pipeline and watching for pressure drops).

We quoted for the project but didn't get it, unfortunately, as it had looked like a fun one.

The whole enterprise was divvied up with one company running the tankage, another the pipeline's and another the hydrants, iirc. All designed so the money went round and round too fast for the tax man to siphon off very much.

Correct. Stanlow at Ellesmere Port is a terminal for the pipelines to most major airports. Originally set up in WW2 to enable fuel for RAF stations to be delivered quickly without need for road tankers.

 

[Fogey]

Air transport is the most problematic area when it comes to sustainable energy sources, as this thread has identified.

An obvious solution would seem, at first glance, to be use of biofuel in existing engines. However, this would need about 1/3 of the World's landmass to be given over to its production. (One of the many reasons for banishing biofuels from all other usage.)

Maybe there needs to be a concerted effort to develop much more efficient methods of production. Couple this to a major reduction in the more frivolous use of air transport worldwide (by means of inherent financial disincentives), and this solution may have legs.

 

[Vipar]

Not absolutely true, BAE have an aircraft Zephyr S its solar powered and has been airborne for 26 days! Rolls Royce ACCEL is a 300mph, 200 mile range aircraft. Bet the pilot is busting for a wee ?

 

[johnb80]

Not absolutely true, BAE have an aircraft Zephyr S its solar powered and has been airborne for 26 days! Rolls Royce ACCEL is a 300mph, 200 mile range aircraft. Bet the pilot is busting for a wee ?

Tut, tut..... you havent been paying attention, see post #37

 

[emmrecs]

Not wanting to resurrect an "old" thread particularly but this BBC News article makes for interesting reading!

 

[MG Clive]

Another win for Electric.

 

[Rolfe]

Partnered with the oil and gas giant BP. Says it all.

 

[siteguru]

Partnered with the oil and gas giant BP. Says it all.

Given that Aberdeen pretty much owes its livelihood to the Oil & Gas industry, such a partnership wasn't unexpected.

 

[Fluffykins]

Solving the supply problems just at major airports would be much easier.

Er... Some major airports don't use tankers to fuel airplanes. There's usually a pipeline distribution system sending fuel from a tank farm to fuelling hydrants at aircraft stands. Simples.

A good many years ago I was involved with quoting an upgrade to the fuelling hydrants system at a major UK airport. Quite an interesting project.

The airport had a dedicated pipeline across the country from a large refinery. The pipeline fed a tank farm on the edge of the airport, which then fed the hydrant system.

There was lots of precision flow and pressure measurement - not just for fiscal transfer either, they were also interested in using high repeatability pressure measurement to monitor the pressure in shut-in sections of pipeline for leakage.

It was an interesting and revealing project but unfortunately the job went to another tenderer.

Working in control, safety and instrumentation systems could be really varied. I've had hands-on dealings on offshore platforms, Port Talbot's rolling mills, a solicitors office, a pharmaceutical lab, several visits to a coal fired power station, nuclear power station in Belgium - and a week in Cornwall on the company, in the tourist season, working with a lovely and mindnumbingly clever guy who was a consultant for the glass industry.

Great times.

 

[Rolfe]

Given that Aberdeen pretty much owes its livelihood to the Oil & Gas industry, such a partnership wasn't unexpected.

Well, no, but it does illustrate the agenda nicely.

 

[EVsince2016]

Hydrogen may make sense for commercial aircraft, if battery technology cannot provide the required power/energy per kg. It would mean at least no pollution at altitudes.

Solving the supply problems just at major airports would be much easier.

Batteries are already better for aircraft.

Batteries think weight (and getting lighter), Hydrogen think volume (you cannot change the laws of Physics.

 

[EVsince2016]

John, I've already given you a link to a commercial hydrogen plane. It is happening, whether you believe it or not.

There are indeed small electric aircraft with a 30 minute range and all the disadvantages of the heavy batteries having to be lugged up into cruise altitude and then landed again.

At this point in time, electric planes will simply not happen unless the two major obstacles of energy density and battery cost are sorted.

You see? It is easy to rubbish one side.

The Oil & Gas industry are throwing $billions at Hydrogen to save their bacon, so yes a fantasy plane exists. No matter how much money you throw at it, you cannot change the laws of physics relating to H2. Cost, storage and volume each make it impractical before you think of

Test planes / trains are using cheap safe 200kW/kg batteries as in the MG4 SE not the latest 600kW//kg batteries developed by CATL. Unlike H2, there is a lot of development room for batteries.

Case in point: -

Why has the world's first hydrogen double-decker fleet failed?

The multi-million pound project in Aberdeen was meant to be the future of clean public transportation.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[johnb80]

The Oil & Gas industry are throwing $billions at Hydrogen to save their bacon, so yes a fantasy plane exists. No matter how much money you throw at it, you cannot change the laws of physics relating to H2. Cost, storage and volume each make it impractical before you think of

Test planes / trains are using cheap safe 200kW/kg batteries as in the MG4 SE not the latest 600kW//kg batteries developed by CATL. Unlike H2, there is a lot of development room for batteries.

Case in point: -

Why has the world's first hydrogen double-decker fleet failed?

The multi-million pound project in Aberdeen was meant to be the future of clean public transportation.

www.bbc.co.uk

Until there's an efficient and cost effective way to harvest the Hydrogen it simply wont work because nobody will want to spend 3 x ICE cost for fuel.

So many issues for aircraft and Hydrogen (or batteries for that matter). Hydrogen need a lot of space and batteries load carrying capability.

 

[Bam Bam]

Until there's an efficient and cost effective way to harvest the Hydrogen it simply wont work because nobody will want to spend 3 x ICE cost for fuel.

The carbon price would have to be very high to make it worthwhile

Then there is the problem of storing and handling all that hydrogen, since it is so much more difficult than kerosene.

You'd want to make it on site, really, which would mean bringing unbelievable amounts of clean water and clean electricity into the airport to turn into H2.

So many issues for aircraft and Hydrogen (or batteries for that matter). Hydrogen need a lot of space and batteries load carrying capability.

Planes could in theory be completely redesigned for H2 tanks. Fat-looking planes. At least the gas is light even if it takes up a lot of space.

People might not be so keen riding around surrounded by flammable gas that is good at escaping any situation, but then if something happens in the air you're not in a good situation generally are you?

We'll have to see where things end up with flight, but it is hard to imagine it can be made sustainable.