What do you think will be standard range in 5 years time

[Lovemyev]

Lovemyev, I understand your method of resetting your trip before each charge, I know not everyone agrees with the process. I was just wondering if you could get the same results and a little more info if you charged, recorded the GOM then reset and recorded the new GOM
With the logic, that this way, the first reading would be the GOM based on your driving during the previous cycle since charging, the second GOM should give the value that you are used to
ie "Real" (estimated) range and Range of the battery in ideal conditions

Thank you for that suggestion !.
When we had the Gen 1 - I had enough paper records to start a recycling plant .
I kept notes of almost every trip, mileage readings before and after, GOM readings before and after, I even kept records of how many Kw's the car pulled when it started charging, how much it pulled mid cycle, how much it pulled before the balance cycle commenced etc etc etc.
It became totally over overwhelming and very stressful and almost completely put me off EV's altogether.
The very early models of the ZS EV where almost gifted at that price point, but they had more than there fair share of issues to go with that cheaper price tag.
I know the face lift model has had its fair share of criticism's also from some owners, but honestly they are not on the same level as the first 1,000 batch of Gen 1 models TBH.
The whole thing about, do I reset the trips, or do I not ?.
Has to be on a personal level and likely to be for different reasons ( like in my case ).
There is not right or wrong way - only your way !.

 

[r1chardbwrn]

Only problem is that the way they have doubled range right now is mainly by sticking more batteries for a larger total weight in the cars, because the battery cell's got cheaper.

It is not really a viable solution to keep doubling the battery capacity by just doubling the weight and of the battery pack.

What is needed, is battery technologies where you have a higher energy density.

If you could double the energy density in a battery pack of a given weight and size, you would effectively "double" the range.

If you add another 500 kilo of batteries, you need more structural iron, larger brakes, etc, making the car considerably heavier, and this would mean that with double the capacity, you would not make the cars go double the distance.

Battery density is improving, the first gen Renault Zoe was 22 kWh battery pack, the gen2 which we have, has the same physical sized pack but is 40 kWh, the gen3 model is about 50 kWh; so the first model was released in 2012, and since then and now battery capacity has more then doubled.

Between battery improvements, more rapid charging hubs and sensible load balanced destination chargers; I feel the future is rosy, but we are going to go through a rocky patch I feel over the next few years. With expensive charging, lack of reliable DC chargers in sufficient numbers at a site, poor destination facilities and car numbers increasing faster then the charge network seems to be improving, its going to be an interesting next few years.

 

[Maciej]

Yeah at the moment when I'm asked by people if they should get ev my answer is to only do it if they like the car itself not for any ev benefits. We still have a problem with cost. My partner drives to work in town small distance if her old car dies she could get by with buying used car for £500 and driving that for a year or two to it dies no EV can match that cost wise.

Evs are still expansive toys for tech enthusiasts. Next few years will be interesting to see what happens

 

[steve1973]

I know and understand totally, why other members disagree with this method of resetting the trips before every single charge / trip.
But keep in mind, that any predicted range on the GOM is just that, predicted / guess !.
I have explained at some length and detail why ( in my mind at least ) I have a really good reason for following this process.
This LONG story covered on other threads, dates back to issues on our original ZS EV Gen 1.
But let's keep firmly away from that extremely stressful experience.
I told myself that I did not want to go down that dark path with our new ZS EV LR model ( there is a bit of a clue in the letters LR - LONG RANGE ).
But in the case of @steve1973 and other new EV members ( I including my own brother here ) they sometimes struggle getting to grips with the fact that they are conducting the same journey day in, day out and after a charge, the predicted range is continuing to drop & drop from what they seen in the first few weeks of ownership, or what the sales person may have told them.
Both you and I, fully understand what is happening here, but the fact that @steve1973 ( and others on here ) have taken the time to posts on the forum in the first place, suggests to me that they are worried that there is something seriously wrong going on with their pride and joy.
Have you noticed that this question very rarely gets brought up in the summer months - I wonder why ?.
I only made the suggestion that Steve should TRY resets his trips, in the hope it would reveal the factory predicted WLTP figure, suggested by MG ( i.e. 80% SOC - 210 ish miles - 100% SOC - 273 ish miles of range ).
This is no magic cure, but could be seen as a relief when suddenly his "collection day range" has returned to the GOM - PHEW !.
As more trips are added in the winter months, this figure will start to reduce again, but NOW Steve is starting to understand of why.
A debate for another day, is the how the affects of resetting the trips on the predicted range on the GOM in the summer time, is different from the winter time.

I get around 200 for 80% that i have seen and 210 for 90% at present. so need to run it for a while and keep checking thanks for the help much appreciated speak soon I'm sure. Steve.

 

[Cocijo]

Yeah at the moment when I'm asked by people if they should get ev my answer is to only do it if they like the car itself not for any ev benefits. We still have a problem with cost. My partner drives to work in town small distance if her old car dies she could get by with buying used car for £500 and driving that for a year or two to it dies no EV can match that cost wise.

Evs are still expansive toys for tech enthusiasts. Next few years will be interesting to see what happens

I agree. In the current market I would not recommend buying an EV unless you can charge at home. It has become such a big factor with public charging rates spiralling.

 

[Gadget Geek]

I know and understand totally, why other members disagree with this method of resetting the trips before every single charge / trip.
But keep in mind, that any predicted range on the GOM is just that, predicted / guess !.
I have explained at some length and detail why ( in my mind at least ) I have a really good reason for following this process.
This LONG story covered on other threads, dates back to issues on our original ZS EV Gen 1.
But let's keep firmly away from that extremely stressful experience.
I told myself that I did not want to go down that dark path with our new ZS EV LR model ( there is a bit of a clue in the letters LR - LONG RANGE ).
But in the case of @steve1973 and other new EV members ( I including my own brother here ) they sometimes struggle getting to grips with the fact that they are conducting the same journey day in, day out and after a charge, the predicted range is continuing to drop & drop from what they seen in the first few weeks of ownership, or what the sales person may have told them.
Both you and I, fully understand what is happening here, but the fact that @steve1973 ( and others on here ) have taken the time to posts on the forum in the first place, suggests to me that they are worried that there is something seriously wrong going on with their pride and joy.
Have you noticed that this question very rarely gets brought up in the summer months - I wonder why ?.
I only made the suggestion that Steve should TRY resets his trips, in the hope it would reveal the factory predicted WLTP figure, suggested by MG ( i.e. 80% SOC - 210 ish miles - 100% SOC - 273 ish miles of range ).
This is no magic cure, but could be seen as a relief when suddenly his "collection day range" has returned to the GOM - PHEW !.
As more trips are added in the winter months, this figure will start to reduce again, but NOW Steve is starting to understand of why.
A debate for another day, is the how the affects of resetting the trips on the predicted range on the GOM in the summer time, is different from the winter time.

Just posted that for clarification for any members who weren't aware. There are a lot of post from people who think something is wrong with their battery when the displayed mileage drops, not realising it's just a prediction.
I agree that if you are going to accurately log the condition of the battery, then you need to start at the same point each time. Your scientific approach and meticulous data collection is very impressive.

 

[Lovemyev]

I get around 200 for 80% that i have seen and 210 for 90% at present. so need to run it for a while and keep checking thanks for the help much appreciated speak soon I'm sure. Steve.

Hi Steve - The ambient temperature has improved this week.
I put the car on charge last night strangely enough, just for a quick top up.
I will send you the photos, so you can see the predicted mileage when charging to 80% and show the ambient temperature this morning.
Trips reset prior.

 

[steve1973]

Hi Steve - The ambient temperature has improved this week.
I put the car on charge last night strangely enough, just for a quick top up.
I will send you the photos, so you can see the predicted mileage when charging to 80% and show the ambient temperature this morning.
Trips reset prior.

View attachment 14446

View attachment 14447

Yes that is definitely more than me at the same temperature currently charging at 82% 197 miles predicted. going on a long journey full charge needed.

 

[Lovemyev]

Just posted that for clarification for any members who weren't aware. There are a lot of post from people who think something is wrong with their battery when the displayed mileage drops, not realising it's just a prediction.
I agree that if you are going to accurately log the condition of the battery, then you need to start at the same point each time. Your scientific approach and meticulous data collection is very impressive.

Thank you @Gadget Geek .
It was born not from want or need, but plain old necessity I am afraid .

Did you reset your trips prior Steve ?.
It is not uncommon for the App to report a slightly different prediction than the car when booted up.
Just out of interest, how old is your car and how many miles have you covered todate ?.

 

[steve1973]

Did you reset your trips prior Steve ?.

Yes as you suggested i did so not sure what's going on if anything.

 

[Lovemyev]

Don’t panic Steve as we have no other evidence supplied by any other owners of LR models, replicating what I am doing here !.
I can only report on my own experiences from day one until now !.
Let’s be clear here, when the weather condition are not favourable, like over the last few weeks, the car will NOT display a predicted range of 212 miles.
I have seen sub 200 myself !.
Just follow this system for a couple of weeks and then get back to me with your findings and we will compare notes .
Remember, if you find it necessary to speak to the dealer ( which I don’t think you will ) you need some back ground evidence to support your complaint !.
Have a safe trip today !.

 

[Striker]

Thank you for that suggestion !.
When we had the Gen 1 - I had enough paper records to start a recycling plant .
I kept notes of almost every trip, mileage readings before and after, GOM readings before and after, I even kept records of how many Kw's the car pulled when it started charging, how much it pulled mid cycle, how much it pulled before the balance cycle commenced etc etc etc.
It became totally over overwhelming and very stressful and almost completely put me off EV's altogether.
The very early models of the ZS EV where almost gifted at that price point, but they had more than there fair share of issues to go with that cheaper price tag.
I know the face lift model has had its fair share of criticism's also from some owners, but honestly they are not on the same level as the first 1,000 batch of Gen 1 models TBH.
The whole thing about, do I reset the trips, or do I not ?.
Has to be on a personal level and likely to be for different reasons ( like in my case ).
There is not right or wrong way - only your way !.

It's a shame that the GOM doesn't (appear) to use a rolling average based on the recently consumption, rather than the consumption since it was reset, which could be years old

 

[N2STY]

It's a shame that the GOM doesn't (appear) to use a rolling average based on the recently consumption, rather than the consumption since it was reset, which could be years old

I have not reset mine for 5k miles it's very accurate now mile for mile

 

[Cocijo]

That’s perfect, as long as your journeys don’t change.

 

[N2STY]

That’s perfect, as long as your journeys don’t change.

Yes I do a lot of commuting but I also do long journeys ie 300 mile round trip to see my mum my wife use car for school run and shopping and the gom just works well in my experience you just need to let it do its thing it's definitely more misleading if it's constantly reset

 

[Cocijo]

Yes, some just get comfort from seeing the biggest number there. Tesla’s are set up this way.

 

[N2STY]

Yes, some just get comfort from seeing the biggest number there. Tesla’s are set up this way.

My ice is the same full tank of diesel it says 500miles but it I reset trips it says 650miles

 

[Lovemyev]

As best as I can tell, the GOM is reporting back to the driver, from the journey being conducted from “boot up”.
This mileage etc is seen on the “current journey” trip recorder, which will automatically reset itself ready for that up and coming trip.
But as it does, it then compiles these figures and add’s it to the “Accumulated trip” total to give you a mean average, based over as many miles / trips as you have built up.
Taking into account a lot of different figures.
e.g. - I made a few school runs last week, I used the App to preheat the cabin before leaving and had the heater running for about 35 minutes outside the school while waiting.
The current journey trip had reset itself of course and the journey to the school is fairly short.
While waiting the M/KWh was something ridiculous low at crazy 1.8 M/Kwh’s !.
As it was displaying the huge consumption set against no data and basing its prediction on that very short journey, plus the heater eating electrons like they were going out of style !.
I had cleared out the historical data from the trips memory the night before, when I had the car on charge.
I do tend to regret bringing up this subject now, as I never intended for it to get into a big debate over what is right or wrong TBH.
Just to be clear, I am not conducting this exercise in an attempt to prove if resetting the trips is right or wrong folks !.
I am keeping a close eye on what is going on with my battery health after the issues surrounding our previous Gen 1 model.
After complying a lot of info and documenting it on our ZS EV Gen 1 over the two years and 20,000 miles we had the car, battery degradation was a real thing, without doubt.
I am therefore keeping a close eye on what is going on with the battery in our LR as I am sure you can understand.
Not resetting the trips is offering you a “best guess” ( and that’s is what it is ) at what it THINKS you are likely to achieve based on your historical data stored in the car.
This is totally fine when conducting regular daily trips, with a couple of known longer journeys when conditions are similarly matched by distance, weather and use of the heater / A/C.
If there are any changes to this criteria, then effects on the efficiency and GOM will only be slight as you have built up a lot of accumulated data stored within the car.
When both trips are reset, then the car is like a child at its first day at school, with a new exercise book and nothing written down yet.
A bit like learning on the fly, so to speak.
The car only has the information it is collecting from that single trip and could be regarded as a slightly more accurate prediction ( or guess ).
Yes the suggestion that by resetting trips offers the driver the best case figure WLTP figure from the pack on that day, is more accurate as it is learning on the fly.
It’s still a prediction of course, but for me it works because it is hopefully showing consistency ( or not as the case maybe ).
We have owned our car now for almost 10 months and covered 8,500 miles.
In that time I have decided to follow a routine that SHOULD continue to provide me with set of figures that I am use to receiving when charging to certain SOC points.
To date, the only deviation on these figures have been seen by the huge drops in ambient temperatures in the last few weeks.
I am plotting change in habits based on changing vs reported SOC levels from the battery.
So trip resetting has been an important part of this routine, it’s becomes easy to spot changes in the car’s behaviour when you use identical criteria’s.
The weather is the only fixture I am unable to control unfortunately .
But it clearly proved to me at least, that charging to a know consistent percentage battery level does not return the expected predicted range as seen when the ambient temperature is above freezing .
Without the figures I have kept, this would not have been possible to show.
Again - There is no right or wrong way here, only YOUR preferred way !.
@steve1973 has reached out asking other members what they are seeing as a predicted range when charging to the recommended 80% for daily trips in the LR models.
I have offered up my results and explained how and why I do this.
I have NO idea if what I am seeing on my car is correct of course.
Maybe another LR owner would be willing to reset both trip before charging and then set the charge limit to 80% and report back on what the car predicts as predicted range ?.

 

[Tiny Tim]

Going back to the original question I'd suggest around 300 miles combined real world range when the car is 10 years old.

The basis for this is a range that allows driving for a little more than 2 hours at motorway speed in bad weather on 70% of charge. 70% because on long runs you rapid charge, roughly, between 10%-80%. The 300 miles is because motorway range and cold weather reduce the 100% range to around 200 miles.... and 300 is a nice round number! I haven't taken into account battery degradation, so maybe a little more would be needed...?

For people who just nip to the shop, shorter is obviously much more appropriate; for those who run long and swap drivers.... well, insanely rapid chargers are more likely the tech that will sort that usage case!

ev-database.org is a great resource for comparing cars. We live in a mild climate, so the ZS LR has a predicted real world motorway (110km/h) range of 325km in a mild climate. 70% is therefore 227km. The speed limit in Portugal is 120km/h - so ideally you're looking at 240km for 70% range - so almost, but not quite. However, I'm hoping I can eek out a bit more, especially as I don't tend to go near the full 120km/h limit (though that might change when I've got a car that doesn't threaten to fall apart at any moment!!). However, the range will obviously be lower in 10 years time - that is the biggest unknown and will likely remain such (generically) until battery technology settles down.

If I ever get my car maybe I will report back in a few years time!

 

[Cocijo]

It’s also worth mentioning that you will almost never go down to 0% charge - most will want to see a minimum of 10% before they recharge.
This also deducts 10% from what is real world usage.
For example a 60kwhr battery with a reasonable bms buffer might give 57-58kwhr of usable capacity. As many will never want to go to 0%, taking a 10% safety that’s around 52kwhr that you can real world use without squeaky moments.