April 2023 Electricity Prices

The 1.5 Toyota Yaris hybrid 'problem'
I agree that the Yaris has outstanding mpg figures, would you want/have one? Genuine question, as you are obviously a boy that likes a certain level of performance in his cars (even your ugly onešŸ˜‰)
There are compromises in most car purchases and the Yaris is obviously space and performance.
 
I agree that the Yaris has outstanding mpg figures, would you want/have one? Genuine question, as you are obviously a boy that likes a certain level of performance in his cars (even your ugly onešŸ˜‰)
There are compromises in most car purchases and the Yaris is obviously space and performance.
Good question. Not sure. Like you implied, there's more to life than mpg. I don't mind the look of it actually, but touch wood, the ugly one is still ticking along fine (although after a coolant flush I'm noticing the coolant falling a bit, but that could be some air and the mechanic aid it could fall afterwards). The ugly one is a proper Christine too. Very nippy with 215hp and a limited slip diff, but sometimes takes you for a drive.
 
Good question. Not sure. Like you implied, there's more to life than mpg. I don't mind the look of it actually, but touch wood, the ugly one is still ticking along fine (although after a coolant flush I'm noticing the coolant falling a bit, but that could be some air and the mechanic aid it could fall afterwards). The ugly one is a proper Christine too. Very nippy with 215hp and a limited slip diff, but sometimes takes you for a drive.
I know what you mean back in my single days I had an RX7 then a Nissan 200SX both tail happy but great fun and you actually had to be "able to drive" to enjoy them
 
Most modern cars are capable of a bit of ā€œfunā€ driving, you only have to look at the power outputs compared to the average ā€œshopping trolleyā€ of 30-40 years ago when I did my rallying.

Nowadays just the thought of overtaking on a single carriage way road is enough to give some palpitations. Mind I do smile when someone blasts past just to get one car further forward. My village is about 1/4 mile of derestricted road from the town, not really worth winding the speed up for. Half the time when someone does they end up turning into the estate a few hundred yards up
 
Electricity prices in the UK are dictated by a market in which generators bid to offer power, they all get paid at the highest price. At present the price of gas is the highest cost and so all generators are paid at the premium price needed to pay for gas and run generators. Wind and nuclear can get by at 5/6p a kWh but wholesale prices are nearer 30p, which is what they all get paid. Wind farms with cfds pay back their excess profits into the LCCC so they don't actually make more than they need to turn the agreed profit at which they would be supported.

Russia stopped the export of gas and Germany it's biggest customer had to run round buying it at high prices. The UK has supported Europe by exporting both gas and electricity since early May. We have access to North Sea gas but always top up with LNG brought by tanker. LNG is super cooled to liquify and takes up a 600th of the space of gas itself. The biggest tankers arrive from Qatar with enough gas to keep London warm in winter for a week. We have 3 terminals for LNG, 2 in Pembroke Harbour and 1 on the Isle of Grain. Heat is needed to regasify the LNG which comes in some part from waste heat from gas fired power stations. We have little gas storage in the UK but have been able to rely on adequate supplies from the North Sea both UK waters and Norway with this topping up from LNG tankers. Gas has been piped to the Netherlands and Belgium, our only 2 interconnectors to Europe at full pelt all summer. Gas fired electricity consumes twice the gas energy compared to the electricity output. Sending 5 GW of electricity to Europe is the equivalent of pumping 10 GW of gas. As I said earlier we have been pumping massive amounts of energy into Europe all summer, often more than we consumed in the UK. Coupled with savings made in Europe all the storage facilities of both gas and LNG were full by late October. This was better than anyone expected. Gas Futures have therefore fallen back but we don't know what price has been paid in hedging (future fixed price trades, not fluffy green things round gardens) and it is that that Ofgem use to fix prices.
If we get through this winter with enough gas to meet tight needs in reasonable comfort the market prices for gas will fall. Qatar have untapped reserves to exploit and they have contracts for the work to be done, but it will take 2-3 years. The US has been exporting as much gas as they can. Unfortunately an accident at a liquifying plant curtailed output in June. No one was injured in the accident but the regulators uncovered a can of worms in the operating procedures and this is holding up the restart of the plant.
The French nuclear system is the backbone of the interconnected European electricity system but faults and wear issues have arisen simultaneously at so many reactors they are some 10 to 15 GW below expected output. The UK normally buys electricity from France for much of the year but not at all this year.
Germany has stopped the closure of 3 nuclear plants for the winter, frankly there is nothing wrong with the plants it is just a political issue in Germany, if more fuel could be obtained they could run for some years. Belgium is in the same position and is keeping a reactor going. The UKs reactors are down to less than 5GW output but EDF are looking to keep them running beyond their current closure dates. They will check the integrity of the graphite cores and run them at lower power.
China is in lockdown and currently using less gas. They have a pipeline to Russia but it provides only a small amount of gas, mostly it arrives by tanker. This is good news because it frees up tankers to ship gas to Europe.
Germany has had to build LNG import terminals. By using repurposed tankers it is a straightforward job and already one in Willhelmhaven is almost ready to receive LNG. 4 other terminals are in the process of being built and should be ready for winter 2023. Though not completely replacing Russian gas they will go a long way towards it. Rotterdam is getting a similar new terminal.
LNG tankers are big ships. The biggest hold 250,000 m3 of LNG and average 180,000 m3. It takes about 25 days for a round trip to the US and 32 to Qatar. It takes 30 months to build one and they are mainly built in Korea where some 12 or so are currently being built. We can expect 4 or 5 additional tankers by winter 2023. China also has some on the stocks.
Winter hasn't started yet and tankers have been queuing to offload cargos. Many pulled up off Cadiz so their crews could get a sun tan. (More likely get painting in warm sunny weather.) They have also been slowly coming away from Cadiz and making their way to European terminals.
Poland, Lithuania (I think), Netherlands, Belgium, France, Portugal, Spain, Italy and Greece all have LNG terminals and Italy and Greece are adding to them, as well as those mentioned earlier.

Subsidising power is a path to hell, in the end no one wins. By subsidising directly the sting could have been removed from inflation but as Jeremy Hunt has said we just need to use less to support Ukraine. Letting the price rise will make everyone (nearly) more frugal. Funding insulation to promote power saving has to be helpful for the not so well off. As a heat pump user I can say that they dramatically reduce power consumption. Last year of fossil fuel we consumed 24,000 litres of oil, the heat pump has produced 17,500 kWh of heat for 5,700 kWh of electricity. The majority of that at overnight Go prices and now a higher proportion at Intelligent Octopus rates. Oil is roughly 10 kWh per litre. So there is a hidden efficiency in that 7,500 kWh, much higher than we could expect from the SEDBUK rating of what was a fairly new top class boiler. And whilst a COP of 3 doesn't seem great, this is a 14kW heat pump with 2 fans, a system with 4 pumps for a 5 bedroom house. A basic 8 kW system for a 3 bed house would achieve a COP of 3.7 or better. The pumps rob the system of 250 watts, 2 lower power Grundfos pumps in the mix could have saved 70 watts maybe and would be recommended for a smaller house.

Oh and the future of electricity prices; I think that if the French get their problems sorted for next year, Europe will be able to manage on some 20 GW less gas to generate electricity. That is equal to about a fifth of the winter consumption in the UK for heating. The US and Qatar will be able to replace the Russian gas but shipping will have to be co-ordinated and slick. China coming out of lockdown might have an effect as will windy weather. This autumn seems to have been very good for wind output. Tonight might see a record broken in the UK of 21 GW output.
 
..... I think that if the French get their problems sorted for next year, Europe will be able to manage on some 20 GW less gas to generate electricity.
Nice piece Brian, very interesting.

Sadly, France getting it's nuclear s**t together anytime soon is unlikely. Half of the current 56 nuclear power stations remain shutdown for maintenance here and a few of those have been closed for 12 years now. There is also a problem with 'corrosion' (whatever than means in nuclear terms), which sounds unlikely to be a quick fix. The issue with nuclear stations here is currently so bad France is increasing the output from gas etc.

But ... as with Germany and the UK (and I'm sure everywhere else in Europe), power consumption is a hot topic and people are certainly using less. Almost everyone in France uses electric water heaters and radiators - usually augmented by wood burners, gas is not really a thing and about 8% of houses still use heating oil. The grid operator here ENDIS has removed the timing poll that turned on water heaters automatically during the day and basically, nobody noticed, people are being asked to change their thermostats from 20-something to 19 degrees and avoid things such as using dishwashers/washing machines at peek times; it is thought that this alone could mean no power shortages over the winter - small changes can make a big difference cumulatively.
 
this government try to blame everything on Ukraine and I understand itā€™s a 1st world disaster but itā€™s the wholesaler who has put up the gas prices. We donā€™t get Russian gas in uk and are one of the biggest LNG importers in Europe, mostly from USA. OPEC announced last month they were scaling back production which will keep prices high due to demand. They could flood the market with cheaper fuel if they wanted to. Environmental impact not withstanding. when I worked for centrica before they sold off their power station fleet they pulled out of the new nuclear build due to a lack of incentive and bureaucratic incompetence from the government. The Chinese who bought in did the same. EDF have a highly lucrative guarantee price for production from the new build. Itā€™s not just the NHS that needs dramatic reform..
 
Some people try to blame everything on this government... :)

It's a feature of supply and demand that if there is less gas available (i.e. no Russian gas) then the price of that which is available goes up for everyone, as there is more competition for it.

All governments here are somewhat impacted by pressures put on them by the public in resisting change and in particular the NIMBY attitude, and in ensuring governments can be held accountable for their decisions. It happens with everything - roads, housing, airports, energy etc etc. I doubt the bureaucracy is much different to any democratic country or under any shade of government, though I'd accept that maybe we are slower acting than some, but I suspect that is more about how the system has developed (e.g. multiple public inquiries) rather than this government.

If I'm sounding like a Tory fan-boy I'm not, but there are often quite valid reasons for bureaucracy, like them or not.
 
this government try to blame everything on Ukraine and I understand itā€™s a 1st world disaster but itā€™s the wholesaler who has put up the gas prices. We donā€™t get Russian gas in uk and are one of the biggest LNG importers in Europe, mostly from USA. OPEC announced last month they were scaling back production which will keep prices high due to demand. They could flood the market with cheaper fuel if they wanted to. Environmental impact not withstanding. when I worked for centrica before they sold off their power station fleet they pulled out of the new nuclear build due to a lack of incentive and bureaucratic incompetence from the government. The Chinese who bought in did the same. EDF have a highly lucrative guarantee price for production from the new build. Itā€™s not just the NHS that needs dramatic reform..
The loss of Russian gas queered the market. Germany was buying the stuff in at low prices, though Poland and Lithuania had managed better deals when they went to imported LNG. The amount of gas flowing into Europe lost because of the war cannot be stressed too highly it really is the base of the present difficulty. That it was so cheap and used without much regard to efficiency has proved to be a bit of a salvation because there was so much room for saving without anyone really suffering. The UK does have a big advantage on gas flexibility but also this winter wind power really has stepped up to prevent a lot of gas being burnt for the UK's electricity. Last night, had it not been for exporting to Europe, the UK's electricity supply could have been met solely from nuclear and wind with ~ 2 GW to spare. With the SeaGreen wind farm coming on stream as it is built we are benefitting from some 500 MW already and by February it might produce 1100 MW. Dogger Bank A foundations are going in and when the new jack up crane Voltaire arrives on site it should be able to load 8 massive turbines at a time and get them to the wind farm. With only 76 turbines to erect for 1200 MW if the conditions are right it could be built in 18 weeks or so. Certainly we will have it available for next winter along with some part of Dogger Bank B. The Viking wind farm on Shetland will also be complete with other on shore wind farms giving UK an additional 3 GW by the end of 2023. And then there will be a flurry of new wind farms coming on stream... East Anglia and Norfolk Vanguard and Boreas, Moray West amounting to over 5 GW and some of the Lancashire/Cumbria farms should be on their way by then too. If the current program gets a bit of a push by 2027 over 10 GW of new wind will be built taking the total nameplate to 40 GW. The massive Scottish programme will follow with some 25 GW there, Celtic floating will add 4-5 GW and the extensions to Rampion, Galloper etc. to the East coast will add another 5-6 GW by 2030, X-link in Morocco will add 3.6 or more. Yes by 2031/2 we could well have 60-70 GW of wind along with Hinckley C we should have regular generation of 40 - 50 GW exceeding current demand. Electrification of heating and travel will start to soak that up but CCGT will only be required to step in in rare circumstances if we have the interconnectors right.
 
Fantastic posts Brian, thank you. I may steal bits for another forum I use but I'll give credit, if that's OK.
 
The loss of Russian gas queered the market. Germany was buying the stuff in at low prices, though Poland and Lithuania had managed better deals when they went to imported LNG. The amount of gas flowing into Europe lost because of the war cannot be stressed too highly it really is the base of the present difficulty. That it was so cheap and used without much regard to efficiency has proved to be a bit of a salvation because there was so much room for saving without anyone really suffering. The UK does have a big advantage on gas flexibility but also this winter wind power really has stepped up to prevent a lot of gas being burnt for the UK's electricity. Last night, had it not been for exporting to Europe, the UK's electricity supply could have been met solely from nuclear and wind with ~ 2 GW to spare. With the SeaGreen wind farm coming on stream as it is built we are benefitting from some 500 MW already and by February it might produce 1100 MW. Dogger Bank A foundations are going in and when the new jack up crane Voltaire arrives on site it should be able to load 8 massive turbines at a time and get them to the wind farm. With only 76 turbines to erect for 1200 MW if the conditions are right it could be built in 18 weeks or so. Certainly we will have it available for next winter along with some part of Dogger Bank B. The Viking wind farm on Shetland will also be complete with other on shore wind farms giving UK an additional 3 GW by the end of 2023. And then there will be a flurry of new wind farms coming on stream... East Anglia and Norfolk Vanguard and Boreas, Moray West amounting to over 5 GW and some of the Lancashire/Cumbria farms should be on their way by then too. If the current program gets a bit of a push by 2027 over 10 GW of new wind will be built taking the total nameplate to 40 GW. The massive Scottish programme will follow with some 25 GW there, Celtic floating will add 4-5 GW and the extensions to Rampion, Galloper etc. to the East coast will add another 5-6 GW by 2030, X-link in Morocco will add 3.6 or more. Yes by 2031/2 we could well have 60-70 GW of wind along with Hinckley C we should have regular generation of 40 - 50 GW exceeding current demand. Electrification of heating and travel will start to soak that up but CCGT will only be required to step in in rare circumstances if we have the interconnectors right.
It is no good without storage because the wind doesnā€™t always blow when we need it. There needs to be a huge investment in storage for this to provide a reliable grid, without that the extra capacity creates more volatility and this creates a less stable grid, plus we have to keep the baseload power stations anyway.

I am pleased weā€™re investing in wind, makes a lot of sense, but we need storage too.
 
I'd be a bit surprised if they hadn't already thought of that! :)
Not nearly as advanced as it should be:



Lots of talk of investment, few active projects yet.
 
There are a number of research projects going on in the UK alone as well as world wide, some of which have gone as far as real world applications. In Spain there is a parabolic solar reflector farm which heats and stores molten salt to release energy after sundown.

Compressed air systems use spare energy when there is a surplus to store energy in places such as mines to be released when demand cannot be met otherwise, both by direct application to turbines but also by injecting into gas turbines at the burner stage which increases the overall energy output per unit of gas by a significant amount.

The largest amount of energy storage by far worldwide is in pumped water reservoirs but other simple ideas include heavy weights in deep mine shafts. Off peak power to lift them up creating the energy store which is then available almost instantly, mostly to take up surges until other slower reacting supplies can come on line

The important point is most assume electricity storage has to be in the form of electricity AKA batteries but there are many other viable options. Even when talking about electrical storage there are things such as supercapacitors which can be charged extremely fast, far faster than a battery. In China they had trials of buses that could be recharged at a bus stop enough for the next leg.
 
The important point is most assume electricity storage has to be in the form of electricity AKA batteries but there are many other viable options. Even when talking about electrical storage there are things such as supercapacitors which can be charged extremely fast, far faster than a battery. In China they had trials of buses that could be recharged at a bus stop enough for the next leg.
I read a few times this year that the Finns have come up with a working prototype for a sand battery - if viable this could be a potential game changer when considering installation costs etc.

 
thatā€™s reminded me of when I worked for a Finnish utility in the mid 80ā€™s and was shown a ā€œsecretā€ electricity storage system in a research dept at one of their Finnish power stations. It was the size of a single garage, very hush hush and we didnā€™t get a lot of information. An an early phase change storage unit I believe, similar to the larger scale one trialled in one of the midland PSā€™s in the 90ā€™s. They also had an osmotic unit similar to the one powering a plant in Tofte. The tech has been here a while but economic viability hampered its commercial use.
 
Yes, I was not assuming battery storage, there are lots of possibilities. But it is still concerning how much these projects remain in the research phase. We need the additional storage now, not in 10 years time.
 
Yes, I was not assuming battery storage, there are lots of possibilities. But it is still concerning how much these projects remain in the research phase. We need the additional storage now, not in 10 years time.
Very true but a few are now at the production viability stage which means that given the right impetus (such as other options becoming more expensive) they would quickly become full solutions.

It is amazing given that impetus how quickly things can be done, look how fast Germany is bringing a new LNG terminal on stream.

I am not a great fan of nuclear, look how much of a headache our parents left us and the next generation disposing of old stations. If that was factored in when producing electricity, it is highly likely the costs would be too high for the time. It cannot be ignored for any new reactors.
 
Very true but a few are now at the production viability stage which means that given the right impetus (such as other options becoming more expensive) they would quickly become full solutions.

It is amazing given that impetus how quickly things can be done, look how fast Germany is bringing a new LNG terminal on stream.

I am not a great fan of nuclear, look how much of a headache our parents left us and the next generation disposing of old stations. If that was factored in when producing electricity, it is highly likely the costs would be too high for the time. It cannot be ignored for any new reactors.
Modern reactor designs minimise the waste and storage could be solved, but my bigger concern is just how expensive and slow new production is. I think the modular route that Rolls Royce is trying is a better bet: a standardised and proven design that is just factory built in multiple units for each site. But then that's probably 10 years away too.

However, nuclear suffers from the Safety Escalation Loop problem: the rules are incredibly strict and bureaucratic to the point that new designs are almost impossible to approve and nobody wants to loosen them in case there's a problem and they get the blame.

The result of all of this is that nuclear isn't cost competitive even at current energy prices anyway, so I don't see it as a good route.
 
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