Its amazing how ice drivers are environment experts

[Kithmo]

"Its amazing how ICE drivers are environment experts"

Without pointing a finger at anyone, would it be fair to say "Its amazing how many ev drivers are electric car experts"?

Dave

Touche

The bottom line is that a sustainable global civilisation (ie one that respected planetary boundaries and was capable of lasting more than a few hundred years more) would not be able to equip even 1 billion individuals of any human sized mammal species with personal transportation units using any existing human technologies. ie in the future there won't be cars.
How we (and if we even can) get from here to there, and what there would actually look like are the important questions. We have maybe less than ten years to work out the answers and perhaps another twenty years after that to make the transition so long as we actually stop turning resources into pollution more or less immediately.

That's deep.

 

[Gomev]

Also factor in the disposal of lithium batteries as well as mining the stuff. I'm not against EVs in any shape or form, indeed driving one is a revelation. I'm merely pointing out that they are not as green as you'd think. Having said that there's no question that they are the future, unless a form of non polluting fuel for ICE engines can be found that could be manufactured cheaply, which isn't likely I'd admit.

It may be worth a look at this.

5 Things To Watch Out For In Studies Claiming Electric Cars Are "Not So Green"

A few days ago, I wrote about a new report by Ricardo for the European Commission showing (yet again) that electric vehicles “have significantly lower impacts on the climate.” I noted in the article that there's a common problem of much more limited studies coming to different conclusions that...

cleantechnica.com

 

[BugEyed]

We have maybe less than ten years to work out the answers and perhaps another twenty years after that to make the transition so long as we actually stop turning resources into pollution more or less immediately.

Spot on. EV's are not the complete answer, but they are better than ICE. The source of any stored energy is part of the solution, with "green" energy being much better than the frankly BS that "blue" hydrogen that the fossil fuel lobby is clinging to represents at the moment.

Unfortunately the embedded energy in building a new car is huge and likely unsustainable for much longer given the size of the world's population and the understandable desire of the poorer people to have some of the luxuries that we in the richer economies have.

 

[BugEyed]

For a realistic report on the current situation for ICE versus BEV you might want to consider the report by Volvo who produce both an ICE and an EV version of the XC40 and compare the two.

https://www.volvocars.com/images/v/...electric-light/volvo-cars-LCA-report-xc40.pdf

The bottom line largely depends on the electricity mix that they consider:

They have a "breakeven" point of 77,000 km (~49,000 miles) on the current electricity mix (before the war in Ukraine) as a comparison between the two fuel sources. I would hope that the average EV will do considerably more during its lifetime (Volvo assume 200,000 km / 125,000 miles which seems high when you factor in outliers such as cars that are written off).

 

[jag john]

Getting bored with ice drivers telling me how bad my car is for the environment. Its amazing how they are experts in all things ev. When is it going to stop. Ah well, I'll just have to keep telling them to suck their exhaust pipes and see how long they last.

I’ll be very honest I’ve not purchased mine to be green I’ve purchased mine for a smooth ride and economy sorry if this upsets anyone

 

[Robf]

A few factors to consider

Statistics and damn lies but.

Most car journeys are short, ICE vehicles hardly get warmed up and are at their most polluting at this time

Where they pollute is the most important factor, inner cities with busy roads concentrate the ICE pollution causing major health problems, hence congestion charges, with no charge for electric cars.

One of my mates (yes really I do have one) was complaining to me that we don't pay road tax and in a collision my electric car would cause much more damage to his ice car because of the battery compartment rigidity, I sincerely apologised for both, and in addition for only paying £1.50 for my full charge (30 kw leaf on octopus go).

What fun

 

[BugEyed]

was complaining to me that we don't pay road tax

No, but you likely paid more VAT when the car was purchased new - the equivalent Nissan Pulsar would have been around £5k cheaper and hence the original purchaser would have paid around £1k more VAT. Depending on the emissions of his ICE he might also be paying £0 VED or a lot more if it is a serious polluter.

in a collision my electric car would cause much more damage to his ice car because of the battery compartment rigidity

Tosh. There is an issue of greater weight but that is likely offset by the lower speeds that BEVs typically drive at.

 

[Robf]

No, but you likely paid more VAT when the car was purchased new - the equivalent Nissan Pulsar would have been around £5k cheaper and hence the original purchaser would have paid around £1k more VAT. Depending on the emissions of his ICE he might also be paying £0 VED or a lot more if it is a serious polluter.



Tosh. There is an issue of greater weight but that is likely offset by the lower speeds that BEVs typically drive at.

Errrrrr

Bought for £13,000 second hand

Tosh... battery compartment is in addition to usual body strength of car, besides, it wasnt my comment... and its the combined speed in a collision thats important and on average electric cars are much faster than ice.... I would point out that your comment are consistent with boulderdash.

 

[Bryan Flanagan]

The source of power for electricity is the same as for pumping oil out of the ground.

I refer the jury to a video that was posted earlier, apologies if you have already seen it.

That video is a really interesting take on the question. For the first half. The maker does a great job of quantifying the cost of producing, refining and distributing petrol and diesel. While watching the first half I was thinking "wow, this is looking a bit like a slam-dunk". Then he moved on to the cost of producing EVs, touched on the cost of lithium, and rapidly concluded that indeed he had produced a slam-dunk.

Oi, not so fast!

I've attached a PDF which breaks down the composition of modern (2020) EV batteries and this shows an "average" battery containing only about 3% lithium. The video focuses on this as the cost of building an EV and ignores the other 97% of the battery plus of course all of the other gubbins which go to make a car of either persuasion. At this point it becomes obvious that the maker of the video either doesn't know schmick about vehicles, or is deliberately misleading potential viewers; I suspect the latter.

I claim a reasonably scientific and logical mind. I tend to think that for instance a ZS EV is probably a bit more environmentally friendly than a petrol ZS, but I don't believe for a moment that the difference is major. I also suspect that a ZS EV is probably not as environmentally friendly as something like a petrol powered Suzuki Swift, but again I doubt if the difference is major.

I currently have an MG HS PHEV (and a ZS EV on order) not because I have any notions of saving the world, rather because the life cycle dollar cost to me of these cars is probably going to be greatly less than pretty much any ICE car, they're both really nice to drive, and both are nicer to be around in an urban environment where I spend most of my time.

The video is garbage.

 

[Gomev]

That video is a really interesting take on the question. For the first half. The maker does a great job of quantifying the cost of producing, refining and distributing petrol and diesel. While watching the first half I was thinking "wow, this is looking a bit like a slam-dunk". Then he moved on to the cost of producing EVs, touched on the cost of lithium, and rapidly concluded that indeed he had produced a slam-dunk.

Oi, not so fast!

I've attached a PDF which breaks down the composition of modern (2020) EV batteries and this shows an "average" battery containing only about 3% lithium. The video focuses on this as the cost of building an EV and ignores the other 97% of the battery plus of course all of the other gubbins which go to make a car of either persuasion. At this point it becomes obvious that the maker of the video either doesn't know schmick about vehicles, or is deliberately misleading potential viewers; I suspect the latter.

I claim a reasonably scientific and logical mind. I tend to think that for instance a ZS EV is probably a bit more environmentally friendly than a petrol ZS, but I don't believe for a moment that the difference is major. I also suspect that a ZS EV is probably not as environmentally friendly as something like a petrol powered Suzuki Swift, but again I doubt if the difference is major.

I currently have an MG HS PHEV (and a ZS EV on order) not because I have any notions of saving the world, rather because the life cycle dollar cost to me of these cars is probably going to be greatly less than pretty much any ICE car, they're both really nice to drive, and both are nicer to be around in an urban environment where I spend most of my time.

The video is garbage.

So the whole video and it's content is now just garbage because it doesn't quantify the amount of lithium in an EV battery and the author in your opinion is deliberately misleading viewers.
The reason lithium mining (not lithium itself) is mentioned is because that is what anti-EVers always pick on as a reason why EVs are bad. The video also says that this is an overblown argument.
The video is an overview of what goes into producing the power used by EVs and for ICE vehicles. We are all aware of the argument that EVs 'aren't really green' because the electricity they use is dirty, but proponents of that argument fail to mention that oil production uses that same electricity to mine and refine, as well as some of the same chemicals.
Perhaps you need to re-watch it for what it is, a comparison of power used in creating the go juice used by vehicles., and not a scientific breakdown of what is in a battery.

 

[JCFlippen]

Also factor in the disposal of lithium batteries as well as mining the stuff. I'm not against EVs in any shape or form, indeed driving one is a revelation. I'm merely pointing out that they are not as green as you'd think. Having said that there's no question that they are the future, unless a form of non polluting fuel for ICE engines can be found that could be manufactured cheaply, which isn't likely I'd admit.

YTube Electric Viking has a video about Hydrogen as a fuel for ICE engines.

 

[awbugritt]

The problem is extracting the hydrogen in a 'green' manner at a price that's affordable for all.

 

[Geo68]

I’ll be very honest I’ve not purchased mine to be green I’ve purchased mine for a smooth ride and economy sorry if this upsets anyone

They are smooth and economical, another plus

 

[BruceT]

I.C.E drivers and EV critics all pick and chose their statistics and facts to suit the agenda they are trying to push. "A new battery is £10,000" because that sounds bad! Well I can tell you a NEW engine for my Diesel Mercedes is £11,000 but I wouldn't buy a new one!!

 

[Lguk]

People seem to forget just how much electricity goes into refining petrol.

For me EV was primarily a financial decision, but shifting pollution from point of use to a large facility that could be more efficient and wasn't where we live or work also appealed.

I'm still trying to get my head around this space power station. I keep checking for the credits on that document don't include Isaac Asimov or Eugene Rodenberry.

 

[Kett]

The one I hate the most is the argument of "I just don't think electric cars are ready yet".
It's a poor argument. Who will announce when they are ready... Brian Cox? Martin Lewis? Jeremy Clarkson?
We now have Liberty Charge units and reserved EV bays in the terrace streets of our town, so that argument is gone.
The 250 mile range is enough for 360 days a year, with rapid chargers next to motorways for the other days.
The only argument I can't ever win is... my spreadsheet proving 5.7p per mile is somehow not as reliable as some stranger who they once met that said that they have an electric car but haven't noticed it being cheaper... seriously? Did you check it wasn't a hybrid?

 

[Robf]

The one I hate the most is the argument of "I just don't think electric cars are ready yet".
It's a poor argument. Who will announce when they are ready... Brian Cox? Martin Lewis? Jeremy Clarkson?
We now have Liberty Charge units and reserved EV bays in the terrace streets of our town, so that argument is gone.
The 250 mile range is enough for 360 days a year, with rapid chargers next to motorways for the other days.
The only argument I can't ever win is... my spreadsheet proving 5.7p per mile is somehow not as reliable as some stranger who they once met that said that they have an electric car but haven't noticed it being cheaper... seriously? Did you check it wasn't a hybrid?

I feel your pain , I have had an electric car for over 3 years now (started with 22kw zoe rented battery) and used to get frustrated with all the rubbish constantly banded about. Now I just smile to myself, especially over recent times when ICE's are fighting each other in thoses long que's to fill up their polluting vehicles with fuel that is costing them a fortune.
Just think, if it wasn't for them paying through the nose for fuel tax and road tax, the goverment might turn their attention to ways of geting revenue from us , so long may it continue .

 

[EVsince2016]

For a realistic report on the current situation for ICE versus BEV you might want to consider the report by Volvo who produce both an ICE and an EV version of the XC40 and compare the two.

https://www.volvocars.com/images/v/...electric-light/volvo-cars-LCA-report-xc40.pdf

The bottom line largely depends on the electricity mix that they consider:

View attachment 8255
They have a "breakeven" point of 77,000 km (~49,000 miles) on the current electricity mix (before the war in Ukraine) as a comparison between the two fuel sources. I would hope that the average EV will do considerably more during its lifetime (Volvo assume 200,000 km / 125,000 miles which seems high when you factor in outliers such as cars that are written off).

A lot of facts in the Volvo report were challenged as being inaccurate or unfair. In particular the manufacture of identical components on the EV version were somehow higher than identical components of the ICE version. I don't think that Volvo ever addressed that point.

 

[EVsince2016]

The video is garbage.

There are now so many battery chemistries that comparing them individually is a false economy. This is why so called rare earth / hard to extract minerals are the focus of all studies.

 

[EVsince2016]

The only argument I can't ever win is... my spreadsheet proving 5.7p per mile is somehow not as reliable as some stranger who they once met that said that they have an electric car but haven't noticed it being cheaper... seriously? Did you check it wasn't a hybrid?

My last EV cost me under 1p per mile, no tax, no repairs, cheap servicing. When I tell people my cars lifetime fuel cost is lower than their monthly bill I love their reaction!