Limited Battery Capacity, Short Range, High Purchase Cost means the EV revolution may face a natural death sooner.. .

ARealHuman

Active member
Nuclear power is the absolutely most environmentally friendly way to make electricity there is.
Except when it isn't - see Japan.

One should build them inside mountains or into the ground for safety reasons if you ask me,
The environmental impact of that alone would be massive. Imagine all the machinery, spoil (taking it out and putting it somewhere), transportation, logistics, people etc.

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you, just trying to emphasise that each option has it's pros and cons as we all know. Maybe nuclear fusion? ;)
 

Noraf142

Member
Like I said, currently it's the best option.
And, Japan is a bad example, as the problem there where lacking maintenance, and poor planning of the back up generator placement. The plant itself survived the tsunami......
Chernobyl wouldn't be a good example either, as those plants are obsolete too.
 

ARealHuman

Active member
I dont think either is a bad example as the fact that something went wrong, regardless of the cause, shows these type of facilities - as well as others - can be subject to catastrophes.
 

Noraf142

Member
Well, it could be used against all things man made then. Just add in Murphys law to the equation ?
That said, there are more people being seriously sick, and that dies, because of coal plants alone each year, than to nuclear powerplant failures from the start of them.... And the negative environment impact from those plants are also worse than the nuclear plants. So, even with the mishaps that have happened, and those that will in the future, nuclear is the way to go, environmentally speaking. Also helps that they are the most stable plants aswell, and not affected by weather (hydro/wind and solar), not as demanding in resources as coal, gass or oil plants are. Yes, you need a lot of concrete, and you need to mine, and refine the fuel for it, but it's not quite as bad as the fossil fueled ones.

(Really hate that they won't allow new nuke plants built here in Norway)
 

KasEV

Active member
Yes the debate is one of relative risk and comparable risk.
I hope we are going in the right direction by going electric but I just have doubts that the problem of range/ battery capacity, High Purchase Cost and poor electricity infrastructure make us ready for going electric.
The electricity and batteries have to come from somewhere and it is becoming clearer that this dream of "green electric energy" is indeed just a dream far from reality.
Also Car manufacturers think only about money so if for now more money is being made with petrol and diesel then that is what they will manufacture till it becomes illegal or less profitable.
 

KasEV

Active member
This week the EU has put in a competition that shows there is now a recognition that unless battery and charging issues are solved the future of EV's will be a difficult one.
£10million is being offered to any firm that can produce a battery with a range similar to that of a run tank average petrol car and which takes the same time to charge from 0 to 100% as it takes to fill the average petrol car's tank.
What do you think can this be achieved?
 

Mike

Active member
Has anyone mentioned oil yet? The transportation of oil around the globe, it’s refining is never taken into consideration in the ice vs EV, and neither is the undisclosed cost in electricity of refining petrol/oil and all the wars that have happened that were only to do with controlling oil supplies.
 

KasEV

Active member
Hi Folks,
Well this week the optimism around EVs has taken a big knock. The Tesla battery Day has come to pass and it was more hype and promises and nothing really production ready. In fact the issue of 1 million mile battery seemed to have been completely omitted.
Net effect Tesla stocks took downwards by 7% in the immediate aftermath.
Now with what seems to be recurrent treat from Covid, the BEV market may soon find big brother ICE remains unbeatable especially in terms of cost price. What do you think? Who is winning the BEV/ICE battle?
 

Paulie68

Active member
Hi Folks,
Well this week the optimism around EVs has taken a big knock. The Tesla battery Day has come to pass and it was more hype and promises and nothing really production ready. In fact the issue of 1 million mile battery seemed to have been completely omitted.
Net effect Tesla stocks took downwards by 7% in the immediate aftermath.
Now with what seems to be recurrent treat from Covid, the BEV market may soon find big brother ICE remains unbeatable especially in terms of cost price. What do you think? Who is winning the BEV/ICE battle?

You're take on battery day is dead wrong, maybe you don't have the technical knowledge to comprehend just how phenomenal what we saw on battery day actually was!

ICE is dead, it just won't realise it for a few years yet, initial purchase cost parity of EV's against ICE is getting very close. If you allow for lifetime running costs it's already better. PCP/HP monthly cost plus fuel cost also already has EV lower than ICE in most cases.
 

KasEV

Active member
You're take on battery day is dead wrong, maybe you don't have the technical knowledge to comprehend just how phenomenal what we saw on battery day actually was!

ICE is dead, it just won't realise it for a few years yet, initial purchase cost parity of EV's against ICE is getting very close. If you allow for lifetime running costs it's already better. PCP/HP monthly cost plus fuel cost also already has EV lower than ICE in most cases.
Well OK,
I may be wrong, but so also the stock market and a thousand and one EV industry commentators so I am in good company.
What Musk promised was a ready for market revolution but what he delivered was a wish list for 3 years time.
Some analyst have added 30 years to the time scale required for EVs to get to the 25% Worldwide production mark.
For 25% ownership another 40 to 50 years.
I must confess these modeling include some extreme Covid issues but all in all it seems we may have to pass the BEV revolution to the next generation.
Remember there are over. 1.4 to 1.5 billion ICE in the world and more ICE continue to be produced than BEV.
There are only about 6 million BEVs in the world so you can just see the mountain that needs to be climbed.
Before battery day Musk was promising a revolution. Some production ready tech which will make a very very good quality family BEV be no more than 15k and a super BEV SUV no more than 18K. What he delivered was well revised promises of things in development.
As for the no new ICE manufacturing ban, not sure how well most countries are committed to it now.
 

mj224

New member
Lets face it, all personal transport is costly to the planet, as is the huge human population.

But the genie is out of the bag, and will take several generations to put it back in. We are where we are, there are no overnight fixes.

The way I look at it is that I get my electricity off a supplier who uses wind and solar power, so my car really uses clean power. And I don't spew fumes onto the street.

Of course, batteries, solar panels and wind turbines have a pollution factor in their manufacture process. ICE has the equivalent (or more) in oil production, refining and transportation of that fuel, as well.

Batteries will change substantially over the next 10-20 years. I read (BBC) that the Chinese have developed a 1.2 million mile battery! How that work I have no idea! And maybe the battery cell is just a stepping stone who knows.

We all want to have the freedom of movement, whether is cars, trains or aeroplanes, so we do have a collective responsibility. What are we going to do about it?? Use shanks pony and bicycles more, less unnecessary journeys, less waste in general. Just be more thoughtful I guess...............
 

KasEV

Active member
Lets face it, all personal transport is costly to the planet, as is the huge human population.

But the genie is out of the bag, and will take several generations to put it back in. We are where we are, there are no overnight fixes.

The way I look at it is that I get my electricity off a supplier who uses wind and solar power, so my car really uses clean power. And I don't spew fumes onto the street.

Of course, batteries, solar panels and wind turbines have a pollution factor in their manufacture process. ICE has the equivalent (or more) in oil production, refining and transportation of that fuel, as well.

Batteries will change substantially over the next 10-20 years. I read (BBC) that the Chinese have developed a 1.2 million mile battery! How that work I have no idea! And maybe the battery cell is just a stepping stone who knows.

We all want to have the freedom of movement, whether is cars, trains or aeroplanes, so we do have a collective responsibility. What are we going to do about it?? Use shanks pony and bicycles more, less unnecessary journeys, less waste in general. Just be more thoughtful I guess...............
@mj244
You are absolutely right. On our part personal responsibility is what is necessary and a commitment to waste less. Hopefully industry, government and business in general will also do their part to facilitate the transition to greener fuels. Tesla are indeed doing their best and are ahead of all in the EV auto industry but Tesla are in my opinion now using "spin" to gain maximum capital investment and that will slow other EV companies down except in China where the EV companies have had government support.
 

Paulie68

Active member
@mj244
You are absolutely right. On our part personal responsibility is what is necessary and a commitment to waste less. Hopefully industry, government and business in general will also do their part to facilitate the transition to greener fuels. Tesla are indeed doing their best and are ahead of all in the EV auto industry but Tesla are in my opinion now using "spin" to gain maximum capital investment and that will slow other EV companies down except in China where the EV companies have had government support.
Not sure what you mean about Tesla and spin, they are executing pretty much perfectly, no spin, just real progress, their new battery format is pretty much going to put the final nail in the coffin of range worries and bring EV cost down to parity with ICE. Other OEM's have been dragging their feet and using spin as you call it!
 

Mike

Active member
Back to the title....

Seeing as the Government is backing electric cars & infrastructure, and speeding it up by bringing forward to 2030, the ban on new car sales & self charging hybrids, there will definitely be a place for (cheap) short range city cars (I don’t think for example the Honda e fits this category), and this should stimulate the sector.

Personally, I think the future is bright. The future is Ora.... sorry, green :cool:
 

Paddywack41

New member
I think the infrastructure issues may come to haunt us in the very near future unless a major spend is brought forward sooner rather than later, The Governments has brought forward the ban to 2030 and Europe is likely to do the same (if they haven't already done). The major car manufacturers are already investing heavily in EV technology and so they are not going to wait until midnight 31/12/29 to stop producing ICE vehicles. They will be wanting to repurpose factories etc and so I can see realistically 2025 being the start of a real slump in ICE manufacture.

Over here in NI we are currently lucky in that Charging is still free but a large number of the chargers available here are over `10 years old and when they break down (as they often do) then they are beyond economical repair. I have been told by the Department of Infrastructure that what is preventing them replacing these chargers is planning permission (even though they are replacing existing ones). Unless councils and Government departments start working together and taking responsibility for providing sufficient charging points then i feel that, here anyway, the demand is soon going to outstrip availability.
 

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