Pay per mile. Another blow for EV drivers

[GaryMG4]

Which is paid for on everything, as far as I, and millions of others are concerned the sooner EV owners pay the same as ICE cars the better, why some feel they should have a right to not pay for the proper use of roads or pay the same in taxes as others is beyond me. But as soon as they do, which is looking likely after this budget, EV sales will go into freefall... and that will not help anyone, let alone the government and their stupid sales requirements.

Absolutely so the TOTAL tax take on fuel duty is 52.95 plus the VAT, unless of course you are VAT registered.

 

[Everest]

why would someone pay around £10k more for the same car when you are not getting those incentives anymore, when they can have an ICE car for significantly less, especially as residuales are falling through the floor because of huge discounts

LOL... it's not all about money you know - some of us have grandchildren and care about more than just time and money.

 

[Everest]

I do know how much they cost as we have a full roof installed with max battery allowable

Intrigued what you meant by 'max battery allowable'? FWIW there is no mandatory limit on home energy storage capacity. There is a 'recommendation' under BSI PAS-63100; that is 40kWh within a dwelling or 80kWh if outside, or in detached garage/outbuilding.

 

[Gadget Geek]

And lastly do not say I am wrong, when my post clearly mentions that brands like Polestar, Volvo, Ford, Stellantis and more have ALL stated the same things, even Volvo came out and admitted that EV's are not thats NOT as good as ICE cars, yet, and they cover all costs, as well as environmental, which an EV is not that environmentally friendly, and anyone that says that they are is in their own dream land, and I suppose the batteries are made from fairy dust and not minerals etc that need to be dug up and carted all over the globe before being made into relevant metals for use, carted around the world again, made into batteries and yes you guessed it carted around the globe yet again.... If you think by saying I am wrong, you are right, then, you have my sympathies for living in a world of your own.

Hmm. Someone's been listening to the oil industry FUD. One battery once made will last for maybe 30 years in a vehicle, and then another 30 years in battery storage. One tank of petrol lasts less than one of your long road trips and once burned, cannot be reused. Crude oil has to be extracted from the ground, moved around the world (using dirty deisel) to be refined (using enornmous amounts of electricity), then moved all around the country fo petrol stations, to be burned once.

Sorry, but you are wrong.

[Edit] Forgot to mention all the colbalt used as a catalyst to remove sulphur from the petrol . . . a lot more than has ever been used in batteries.

 

[Gadget Geek]

Why are only EV drivers being considered for pay per mile? Surely they should scrap fuel duty and every vehicle should pay per mile.

 

[siteguru]

Why are only EV drivers being considered for pay per mile? Surely they should scrap fuel duty and every vehicle should pay per mile.

Unfortunately they'd not be able to devise a scheme that increased the tax take from motorists (which is their goal).

And to @JonboyMG3Hybrid's comment re. EVs costing £10k more than their equivalent ICE versions ... utter bollocks. Might have been true a couple of years ago, but nowadays the EV versions cost the same or less.

 

[OriginalBigAl]

Yep, some stupid people fall for that advertising nonsense, not realising that perpetual motion machines defy the laws of thermodynamics.

Some it appears, live with their heads in the clouds and thus defy the laws of gravity.

 

[GaryMG4]

No they are not, yours are, you say you pay ZERO, well, thats a blatant lie, how many tens of thousands have you paid for those solar panels and batteries, and yes I do know how much they cost as we have a full roof installed with max battery allowable, so you are not including that into your costs.

I am so sorry you are not physically capable of driving your car for any length of time, and having one of those USA hideous things, and thats my opinion which I am entitled, is fair enough, but now you work the figures for a similar ICE car along with residuals, your solar panels and battery costs.

And lastly do not say I am wrong, when my post clearly mentions that brands like Polestar, Volvo, Ford, Stellantis and more have ALL stated the same things, even Volvo came out and admitted that EV's are not thats NOT as good as ICE cars, yet, and they cover all costs, as well as environmental, which an EV is not that environmentally friendly, and anyone that says that they are is in their own dream land, and I suppose the batteries are made from fairy dust and not minerals etc that need to be dug up and carted all over the globe before being made into relevant metals for use, carted around the world again, made into batteries and yes you guessed it carted around the globe yet again.... If you think by saying I am wrong, you are right, then, you have my sympathies for living in a world of your own.

You seem to be very wound up by this thread, quite shouty and aggressive. I guess if your agenda is that EV drivers should pay the same as ice then you've made that point. I do consider that I pay zero if I use my solar, I get paid to generate (23p on FiT) and I still get 23p even if I put that in my car. The system has been in for 10 years and has more than paid for itself with FiT payments and the amount of free electricity I have been able to use. BTW the Volvo report you mention, they followed up by stating they had 'forgot' to include the ongoing environmental cost of ice cars and the 80,000 km 'break even' point was actually closer to 14,000 IIRC.

 

[NikLiverpool]

No they are not, yours are, you say you pay ZERO, well, thats a blatant lie, how many tens of thousands have you paid for those solar panels and batteries, and yes I do know how much they cost as we have a full roof installed with max battery allowable, so you are not including that into your costs.

I am so sorry you are not physically capable of driving your car for any length of time, and having one of those USA hideous things, and thats my opinion which I am entitled, is fair enough, but now you work the figures for a similar ICE car along with residuals, your solar panels and battery costs.

And lastly do not say I am wrong, when my post clearly mentions that brands like Polestar, Volvo, Ford, Stellantis and more have ALL stated the same things, even Volvo came out and admitted that EV's are not thats NOT as good as ICE cars, yet, and they cover all costs, as well as environmental, which an EV is not that environmentally friendly, and anyone that says that they are is in their own dream land, and I suppose the batteries are made from fairy dust and not minerals etc that need to be dug up and carted all over the globe before being made into relevant metals for use, carted around the world again, made into batteries and yes you guessed it carted around the globe yet again.... If you think by saying I am wrong, you are right, then, you have my sympathies for living in a world of your own.

More than happy to share my costs.
3 batteries, powewalls. 24k.
9 KW solars. 11k.
Heat pump. 1k thanks to funding and a massive octopus discount.

Gone of gas completely.
ROI based on calculations by octopus, installation company and myself, considering we have 2 EVs is 7 years. Can live with this.

You mentioned mineralls. I presume you are aware that 95% of a battery can be and they are getting recycled and reused. Search what is black mass.

I wonder, does petrol or diesel get recycled?

You mentioned that Volvo claimed that EVs are not environmentall friendly. Wrong. After 30k miles they are surpassing the ICE. Furthermore Volvo did not take under consideration fuel extraction, tanker transport, refining and transport to the pumps.

Furthermore these car companies would love for consumers to go back to ICE so they have a chance to survive. They are losing hard and fast on the EV front with their poor excuse of EVs....

 

[Scotsman]

More than happy to share my costs.
3 batteries, powewalls. 24k.
9 KW solars. 11k.
Heat pump. 1k thanks to funding and a massive octopus discount.

Gone of gas completely.
ROI based on calculations by octopus, installation company and myself, considering we have 2 EVs is 7 years. Can live with this.

You mentioned mineralls. I presume you are aware that 95% of a battery can be and they are getting recycled and reused. Search what is black mass.

I wonder, does petrol or diesel get recycled?

You mentioned that Volvo claimed that EVs are not environmentall friendly. Wrong. After 30k miles they are surpassing the ICE. Furthermore Volvo did not take under consideration fuel extraction, tanker transport, refining and transport to the pumps.

Furthermore these car companies would love for consumers to go back to ICE so they have a chance to survive. They are losing hard and fast on the EV front with their poor excuse of EVs....

Sorry to be a kill joy nobody has gone off gas completely what do you think is powering the turbines at your electricity power station most of them are gas or if in Scotland water steam to power some . That's just my opinion

 

[siteguru]

Gas generator sources in Scotland number a single One - Peterhead. (Ignoring Sullem Voe in Shetland and Grangemouth refinery, which both use gas generators for their own power requirements - they don't export). Everything else is Oil/Diesel or Nuclear ... or renewables of course.

 

[Archev]

Not

Gas generator sources in Scotland number a single One - Peterhead. (Ignoring Sullem Voe in Shetland and Grangemouth refinery, which both use gas generators for their own power requirements - they don't export). Everything else is Oil/Diesel or Nuclear ... or renewables of course.

Not including my heroic attempts to extract every last kilotoddle of regen from the Berlingo in its full downhill splendiferous majesty. Gosh I must annoy a few folk behind me

 

[Scotsman]

Gas generator sources in Scotland number a single One - Peterhead. (Ignoring Sullem Voe in Shetland and Grangemouth refinery, which both use gas generators for their own power requirements - they don't export). Everything else is Oil/Diesel or Nuclear ... or renewables of course.

I wasn't specifically talking about Scotland I was talking about the UK. But you do know Scotland exports more electricity down south than it imports ? Anyway that won't stop the government taxing ev drivers next year

 

[PeterHR2]

There is no enforceable limit on rest time for domestic & pleasure drivers, but the Highway Code (Rule 91) recommends at least 15 minutes every 2 hours. Guess what? Unless on a very long motorway (and/or breaking speed limits), one will rarely be more than around the 100 miles from your starting point after that time. So still around the 50% charge left mark when stopping for that all important rest for most recent EVs (if you've fully charged it of course!). Time for a leg stretch, a wee, a bite to eat and drink (usually brought from home), a cat nap maybe, catch up on emails and WhatsApp messages, check the news on the phone, and, oh yes, a decent amount of kWh input, providing you remember to hook up before you undertake the other activities. I regularly do HR2 to BN1 (around the 200 mile mark) and only rarely do I stop for longer than 20 minutes.

Even when factoring in production sources of GHG generation (to take into account HV battery manufacturing input), EVs generate around 70% less of those gases than ICEs do over their respective lifetimes. And that figure is improving as a greater proportion of renewable energy generation comes on stream.

Air pollution from ICEs (CO, CH4, N2O, NOx, SOx, uncombusted fuels, metal particles, oil leaks, and PMx) is associated with many millions of premature deaths each year globally, with chronic exposure leading to respiratory illnesses, cardiovascular disease, cancers, neurological disorders and immune system effects. The sulphur and nitrogen oxides from ICEs lead to acid rain, which harms plant matter and aquatic life both directly and by altering soil and water chemistry. Fossil fuel spills/leaks contaminate soil and water, harming biological processes and often make the land they occur on too expensive to redevelop because of the high remediation costs. And PMs create hazes/smogs.

Where EVs and ICEs are similar in terms of pollution are tyre debris, brake dust, and A/C refrigerant leaks. But even there, regen can substantially cut down on that brake dust pollution, slightly offsetting the increased tyre debris from the generally heavier EV vehicles.

Make ICE drivers pay the true cost of their environmental damage I say. And ICE VED and fuel duty doesn't begin to cover that damage in the slightest. Only a fool would think it does. Time to bring back the fuel duty increase in April next year... and I say that as a Disco 3 and Fiat Panda owner (and a soon to be MGS5 owner I hope, once my MG5 write off is fully sorted).

 

[NikLiverpool]

And to avoid any misunderstandings I am more than happy to pay my fair share of taxes for the car that I own.
Happy to pay annual VED, happy to pay for anything equivalent to ICE cars.
I am not arguing against this.

What I am bothered about is this ongoing war against EVs by people influenced by the likes of populist parties, influencers and media under the payroll of the oil industry.

People bothered by the fact that mileage drops during winter, conveniently ignoring the drop of mpg too.

People bothered by not achieving the WLTP figures while ignoring that the same applies for MPG.

People pointing to poor residuals which are naturally occurring due to the fast-paced technological advancements of EVs. ICE are the same tech for the last 50 years. Oh apologies they actually got more complicated, so they break down more often and need far more expensive parts and maintenance.

And last but not least complaining about range while 80% of drivers do less than 20 miles per day....

 

[LenEV2016]

And to avoid any misunderstandings I am more than happy to pay my fair share of taxes for the car that I own.
Happy to pay annual VED, happy to pay for anything equivalent to ICE cars.
I am not arguing against this.

What I am bothered about is this ongoing war against EVs by people influenced by the likes of populist parties, influencers and media under the payroll of the oil industry.

People bothered by the fact that mileage drops during winter, conveniently ignoring the drop of mpg too.

People bothered by not achieving the WLTP figures while ignoring that the same applies for MPG.

People pointing to poor residuals which are naturally occurring due to the fast-paced technological advancements of EVs. ICE are the same tech for the last 50 years. Oh apologies they actually got more complicated, so they break down more often and need far more expensive parts and maintenance.

And last but not least complaining about range while 80% of drivers do less than 20 miles per day....

Well said

 

[Ian Key]

It is also reported that nearly half of drivers support pay per mile. Not half of EV drivers but all drivers, most of whom think as they don't own an EV it won't affect them, and if it did it would replace VED.

I think IF it does happen and is successful it will be expanded to all vehicles and won't be instead of Vehicle Exercise Duty but as well as.

 

[JohnV6]

Of course it. The magic money tree will grow another branch

 

[Archev]

Of course it. The magic money tree will grow another branch

Worry not - they’ll twig eventually

 

[MG Clive]

Another thing to consider with this, it probably won't be 3p per mile forever, once it's been introduced and established, it'll become one of those taxes that can easily be increased in the budget every year.