The Contradictions of Battery Operated Vehicles

He talks a lot of sense, of course EVs can't solve the C02 problem on their own. It would be interesting to know though what proportion of gases the motor vehicle produces in construction and use compared with the manufacture of all the other goods civilization replies upon.
 
awbugritt said:
He talks a lot of sense, of course EVs can't solve the C02 problem on their own.
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Not when according to his data they are making it worse, no.

awbugritt said:
It would be interesting to know though what proportion of gases the motor vehicle produces in construction and use compared with the manufacture of all the other goods civilization replies upon.
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The co2 load of shipping it all to & from China etc would be an interesting factoid too...
 
I can't help but feel that cars have been unfairly demonized regarding the emissions issue. I wonder how much crap a Jumbo (the flying variety 🤭) shoves into the atmosphere?
 
awbugritt said:
I can't help but feel that cars have been unfairly demonized regarding the emissions issue. I wonder how much crap a Jumbo (the flying variety 🤭) shoves into the atmosphere?
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Yeah. I dunno what it would work out at but you'd have to divide that by the number of passengers/freight on board to compare to other forms of transport that may only be 1 person for a few hundred miles.
 
True, but many car journeys, particularly in rural areas with inadequate public transport, are essential. How many flights are actually essential over pure pleasure ( if that's not an oxymoron!)
 
awbugritt said:
True, but many car journeys, particularly in rural areas with inadequate public transport, are essential. How many flights are actually essential over pure pleasure ( if that's not an oxymoron!)
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Hmm neither could you drive to the US 😁

To decide that question you need to up the prices & let the market decide who "needs" to go anywhere purely on cost (I doubt emissions will sway it for certain types).
 
Its not just about how much pollution ICE cars produce, its where they produce it e.g. heavy traffic outside schools and inner cities poison the local atmosphere.
 
Need to also consider over 20 years of that car running how much energy has it taken to transport the oil from Russia etc to the uk, then all of the the refinement it goes through and so fourth to eventually get it to your ICE car. At least solar and wind can come from wherever the solar panel and windfarms are located.
 
AdamMGEV said:
Need to also consider over 20 years of that car running how much energy has it taken to transport the oil from Russia etc to the uk, then all of the the refinement it goes through and so fourth to eventually get it to your ICE car. At least solar and wind can come from wherever the solar panel and windfarms are located.
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Exactly. When doing comparisons between an ICE and EV how many times have I heard the argument 'Well what about the CO2 created in making the electricity used by the car, i.e. including the emissions created at source before it gets to the vehicle. Do they do the same with ICE vehicles? Do they include the electric/diesel/chemicals used in drilling, extracting, transporting, refining and finally by road to the pump which uses electricity to dispense the refined fossils. No of course not.
 
He is using bias figures produced by the oil industry! Worst case scenarios for each detail for EVs & best for ICEs

1 - Manufacture - Repeatedly the way of calculating EV v ICE has not been equal by using best case / cleanest factory data for the ICE & dirtiest worst case data for EVs. Volvo were challenged for doing exactly this when their EV body took several times the CO2 amount compared to the identical ICE body to manufacture. Nissan actually have the best figures as they compare like for like in the same factory & that gave a 20% penalty for an EV at 120% of an ICE to manufacture.

2 - Fuel consumption - The ICE figures always use the best case NEDC/WLTP MPG figures which we all know are very exaggerated and ignore the substantial CO2 cost of extracting, transporting & refining oil. Apparently that can add 60-70% to the reported figures! The EV figures do at least use the same manufacturer figures but then use worst case mid-west CO2 figures for electricity generation. If you take the UK electric CO2 EVs are much cleaner and in France / Norway / Scotland they are close to zero.


Peer reviewed data published now quotes 6 months / 6000 miles to break even on CO2

Of course many other factors that make oil worse are ignored, methane emissions, oil wars, oil spills etc etc and the value of battery re-use as grid storage & recycling. You cannot recycle burnt oil!
 
EVsince2016 said:
He is using bias figures produced by the oil industry! Worst case scenarios for each detail for EVs & best for ICEs

1 - Manufacture - Repeatedly the way of calculating EV v ICE has not been equal by using best case / cleanest factory data for the ICE & dirtiest worst case data for EVs. Volvo were challenged for doing exactly this when their EV body took several times the CO2 amount compared to the identical ICE body to manufacture. Nissan actually have the best figures as they compare like for like in the same factory & that gave a 20% penalty for an EV at 120% of an ICE to manufacture.

2 - Fuel consumption - The ICE figures always use the best case NEDC/WLTP MPG figures which we all know are very exaggerated and ignore the substantial CO2 cost of extracting, transporting & refining oil. Apparently that can add 60-70% to the reported figures! The EV figures do at least use the same manufacturer figures but then use worst case mid-west CO2 figures for electricity generation. If you take the UK electric CO2 EVs are much cleaner and in France / Norway / Scotland they are close to zero.


Peer reviewed data published now quotes 6 months / 6000 miles to break even on CO2

Of course many other factors that make oil worse are ignored, methane emissions, oil wars, oil spills etc etc and the value of battery re-use as grid storage & recycling. You cannot recycle burnt oil!
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Some links would be appreciated?

150k to 6k ... One extreme to the other it seems 🤔
 
Gomev said:
Exactly. When doing comparisons between an ICE and EV how many times have I heard the argument 'Well what about the CO2 created in making the electricity used by the car, i.e. including the emissions created at source before it gets to the vehicle. Do they do the same with ICE vehicles? Do they include the electric/diesel/chemicals used in drilling, extracting, transporting, refining and finally by road to the pump which uses electricity to dispense the refined fossils. No of course not.
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Who's that guy that does the whiteboard calculation on YouTube vids about e.g. is it worth doing solar panels & batteries etc?

Perhaps he might have a go at all this?

I mean 150k miles Vs 6k miles? That's some difference
 
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