The Public Charge Point Regulations 2023

[johnb80]

I bow to your clearly greater knowledge...

Not necessary

So every charger has the same industrial pc inside it? good to know.

Generally they will use an industrial PC, often running linux or a PLC such as Allen Bradley all of which have easy interface options such as USB, Digital and analogue i/o

You hopefully wouldn't but you MUST guarantee that every component is safe and again, I'll leave you to your optical means.

It works for airliners on fly by wire for this very reason, safe, difficult to induce interference etc.

So while choosing to argue my points you actually agree with me.

Well it's good to debate things at times, keeps the forum alive.

Yeah, profit, you know that stuff you get when you pass your costs on to the consumer.

Of course, not quite sure where youre heading here. Retail shops get charged processing fees on cards and terminal equipment rental, that comes out of profits, why is this any different?

Again, I bow to your clearly extensive knowledge of the profit margins in the EV industry.

Oh dear, merely common sense, not extensive knowledge but I do have some first hand knowledge of the cost of a public charging point that will be installed on my commercial premises. The electricity to feed it will cost me 29.2p kWh during the day, 21.7p off peak. It gets charged out at an agreed rate typically 45p so 24p profit on the sales, the EVSE company take a cut of that to cover the equipment, servicing and card payments etc, we end up with around 6p kWh. Fuel retailers get on average 7p per litre profit.

Pay at pump? the pumps were replaced which was incredibly expensive but initially born by very big and wealthy oil companies not petrol stations. Wealthy in a way which not so many EV charger owners are.

My local Morrisons and Tesco that was not the case, a number of the pumps had card readers added and integrated into the controls.

 

[Sark21]

A covered charger would be nice. A pod point station in one town I've used is against a wall and since it was installed I don't think floor has been swept so after rain you are lifting any trailing charger cable off a muddy leaf covered floor.Not nice.

 

[evcog]

A covered charger would be nice. A pod point station in one town I've used is against a wall and since it was installed I don't think floor has been swept so after rain you are lifting any trailing charger cable off a muddy leaf covered floor.Not nice.

I agree but suspect most companies treat these chargers like the carpark payment machines. They are seldom covered and we useally have to spend several minutes (just as long as plugging in an EV charger cable and initiating the charge by-the-way). Sometimes I have had to wait 15 minutes and more because of a long queue which in our climate often means a downpour.

Unfortunately, true rain protection will probably only appear above some ultra-rapid charger sites. But only those that can generate enough profit to make it worthwhile. Just look at Tesla chargers sites that may have multiple high power charger positions but without any cover.

 

[ssally]

Don't EV drivers have a car they can sit in?

Plugging in an Ev can take longer than filling with fuel

 

[johnb80]

Plugging in an Ev can take longer than filling with fuel

That I doubt.

 

[DBedford]

Plugging in an Ev can take longer than filling with fuel

I think you meant, plugging in, getting a handshake, and starting charging. To which I can agree

 

[Gomev]

..

Oh dear, merely common sense, not extensive knowledge but I do have some first hand knowledge of the cost of a public charging point that will be installed on my commercial premises. The electricity to feed it will cost me 29.2p kWh during the day, 21.7p off peak. It gets charged out at an agreed rate typically 45p so 24p profit on the sales, the EVSE company take a cut of that to cover the equipment, servicing and card payments etc, we end up with around 6p kWh. Fuel retailers get on average 7p per litre profit.
..

So that’s why public charging is so expensive.

6p/kWh profit for the commercial premises plus The EVSE supplier’s profit.

Even if the only profit was the 6p and using a more than generous 5 miles/kWh that’s 1.2p per mile supplied profit.

Using the 7p/litre(31.5p/gallon) profit stated for fuel retailers and a car that averages 50mpg, gives a profit of 0.6p/mile supplied.

Twice as much profit for supplying electrons, than fossils.

I might even consider having one in my front garden.

 

[johnb80]

So that’s why public charging is so expensive.

Not really, our proposed charges are less than many others.

6p/kWh profit for the commercial premises plus The EVSE supplier’s profit.

You feel thats excessive? think about it another way, were providing a town centre parking space where you can charge your car incurring no parking charges, we make probably 42p per hour for allowing to use our land and providing the charger etc..

Even if the only profit was the 6p and using a more than generous 5 miles/kWh that’s 1.2p per mile supplied profit.
Using the 7p/litre(31.5p/gallon) profit stated for fuel retailers and a car that averages 50mpg, gives a profit of 0.6p/mile supplied.

Twice as much profit for supplying electrons, than fossils.

Take it further though and consider the tax on fuel.....58p fuel duty and 29p VAT it's then a very different picture.

I might even consider having one in my front garden.

I can put you in touch with suppliers, do remember of course you'd need to get change of use of your garden area via your local planning authority

 

[evcog]

You feel thats excessive? think about it another way, were providing a town centre parking space where you can charge your car incurring no parking charges, we make probably 42p per hour for allowing to use our land and providing the charger etc..

Unfortunately all our carparks with chargers, require EV drivers to pay parking charges as well. Some even have stupid regulations that give very limited time to just park let alone get any meaningful charge. 7kw over 3 hours (the maximum stay being 3 hours with no return within 2 hours) is almost not worth the effort especially when the cost is so high (55p kwh loacally). I can visit a rapid charger outside McDonalds for 30 min and get almost a full charge for 65p kwh and enjoy a coffee, and maybe a bun.

If I want a longer balancing of the battery I visit another local car park and pay £5 for all day parking (its free between 6:00pm to 9:00am) but the chargers are only 28p kwh. Only have to do that once a month though.
I also use the opportunity to shop, meet friends, have lunch, mooch around, ie; make the most of things.

Sweet are the uses of adversity, Which, like the toad, ugly and venomous, Wears yet a precious jewel in his head.

Which is an accurate description according to my friends.

 

[Rolfe]

I wrote to Glasgow City Council's EV department about the £40 instant overstay fine if you exceed four hours on their type 2 chargers in a city centre car park. The car park itself is expensive during the day and EV drivers have to pay like everybody else, but there is no maximum stay as such.

I pointed out that the eight connectors are never all occupied at once. Like, never. Why force EV drivers to cut short their business or leisure activities in the city centre to go back to the car park and unplug their car from a charger nobody else wants to use anyway?

I gave the example of longer meetings, and of theatre performances in the evening, which might last for four hours anyway (Glasgow's opera house is five minutes walk away), and/or people might want to have a pre-theatre meal, but decide against it if that would mean having to go back and unplug the car.

I pointed out that there is now a Low Emissions Zone in the city centre, and that EV usage was likely to increase. In that case the response should be to increase the number of car park spaces with EV charging facilities, not to impose punitive fines. (Less than 1% of the parking spaces in that car park have charging facilities.)

I got an automated reply saying that if my question was answered in their FAQ page, they would not reply to my email. And then they didn't reply to my email.

 

[evcog]

Rolfe play them at their own game. Thank them for their reply but say that the FAQ page did not answer your question. Then launch into a Freedom of Information request like so.

[Address for correspondence]

[DATE]

Dear Sir/Madam

Under [Freedom of Information Act/Environmental Information Regulations], I would like to request the following information:

[When requesting information, be specific and avoid asking general questions. Include details such as dates and names if you can.]

I would like you to provide this information in the following format:

[optional specify whether you have a preferred format to receive the information]

Please do not hesitate to contact me on [your phone number or email] should any aspect of my request require clarification.

Yours faithfully

[Name]
How to write an effective request for information

They must by law respond with the information requested which serves 2 purposes:

1. Gets the info (ammunition you want)
2. and takes up 10 times the amount of time just answering your initial letter.

They will learn the valuable lesson to not treat their electorate (employers) like sheep.

 

[Rolfe]

Oh, there's an idea. (Although I don't live in that council area.)

The trouble is, I don't want information, I want them to take on board a different way of looking at their type 2 chargers, as destination chargers, as EV-equipped parking spaces, provided for EV drivers to use for the duration of their stay in the car park, not to be rationed out by imposing arbitrary fines that force drivers to return to their cars in the middle of their business or leisure activity.

I doubt that they want to listen.

 

[Tonych]

Not really, our proposed charges are less than many others.


You feel thats excessive? think about it another way, were providing a town centre parking space where you can charge your car incurring no parking charges, we make probably 42p per hour for allowing to use our land and providing the charger etc..


Take it further though and consider the tax on fuel.....58p fuel duty and 29p VAT it's then a very different picture.


I can put you in touch with suppliers, do remember of course you'd need to get change of use of your garden area via your local planning authority

Town Centre charging with no parking fee? Where is that? Many require you to pay for parking dont they?

 

[johnb80]

Town Centre charging with no parking fee? Where is that? Many require you to pay for parking dont they?

Small market town, Gainsborough, we havent installed the charger yet, building work still to do on our flat conversions.

 

[Gomev]

Not really, our proposed charges are less than many others.


You feel thats excessive? think about it another way, were providing a town centre parking space where you can charge your car incurring no parking charges, we make probably 42p per hour for allowing to use our land and providing the charger etc..


Take it further though and consider the tax on fuel.....58p fuel duty and 29p VAT it's then a very different picture.


I can put you in touch with suppliers, do remember of course you'd need to get change of use of your garden area via your local planning authority

You are very good at taking jovial comments and then being very literal with them, taking each element and attempting to prove your point.
Oh and the fuel duty and VAT aren't profit for the retailer. so apples and oranges.

Not every comment requires dissemination sentence by sentence, please adjust your humour levels up a notch

 

[johnb80]

You are very good at taking jovial comments and then being very literal with them, taking each element and attempting to prove your point.

Oh dear, can give it but take it, thats a shame. I give as good as I get.

Oh and the fuel duty and VAT aren't profit for the retailer. so apples and oranges.

I know it's not profit for the retailer but it is paid by the consumer when they buy the product and therefore a true part of the cost per mile equation.

Not every comment requires dissemination sentence by sentence, please adjust your humour levels up a notch

Well I suppose if you stop stating the obvious and analysing the pointless the dissemination process wouldnt be needed.

 

[Grriff]

I've received a reply to a letter sent to my MP about chargers at Leicester Forest East. This is reproduced below:
Dear Mr Griffiths,

Thank you for taking the time to share your concerns about the availability of electric vehicle charging points in the UK. I apologise for the delay in getting back to you.

I completely agree that charging an electric vehicle should be convenient for people right across the country, regardless of where they live. Gaps in the availability of charging infrastructure in different parts of the country must be addressed and so the Government is financially supporting local authorities to build up their electric car charging infrastructure to increase local access.

So far, government funding, alongside private sector investment, has supported the installation of more than 37,000 public electric vehicle charging devices, of which over 6,800 are 'rapid'. The Government has also changed building regulations to require chargepoint infrastructure in new homes and non-residential buildings.

Furthermore, the Government will be taking forward other measures from its Taking Charge strategy, including the new £450 million Local EV Infrastructure Fund which will support local authorities, working with industry, to deliver chargepoints for drivers without off-street parking. It will also be reforming the Electric Vehicle Homecharge Scheme to focus on renters, leaseholders and those living in flats and expanding its workplace charging scheme.

By the end of 2023, I know that Ministers aim to have six rapid charge points at every motorway service area in England. To support this goal, I am told that the Government will invest £950 million in the Rapid Charging Fund which will future-proof electrical capacity at motorways and major A road service areas, dashing any anxiety around long journeys and making charging as easy as refuelling a petrol or diesel car.

And further, new homes and buildings such as supermarkets and workplaces, as well as those undergoing major renovation, will be required to install electric vehicle charge points from next year under new legislation. This will mean that people can buy new properties which are ready for an EV future, while ensuring charge points are readily available at new shops and workplaces across the UK – making it as easy as refuelling a petrol or diesel car today.

I hope that this information is of some reassurance to you. Nevertheless, I will ensure that I continue to monitor this issue closely and relay any concerns to my Ministerial colleagues, particularly in relation to charging points around the Leicester Forest East M1 Service Station.

Thank you again for contacting me.

As ever, if you require any further assistance, please do not hesitate to get in touch.

Best wishes,

Ruth

Ruth Edwards MP

In my reply I have mentioned the need for good shelters. I have also suggested that new buildings with large rooves (warehouses, service stations) are required to fit solar panels.

 

[Gadget Geek]

I have also suggested that new buildings with large rooves (warehouses, service stations) are required to fit solar panels.

A fairly encouraging response, if it all come true. There is no excuse for every public building (council offices, police stations, fire stations, hospitals, etc) to have solar panels covering their roof spaces, and hospitals should phase out the old deisel back up generators in favour of battery mega packs (fed by the panels on the roof, obviously).

 

[Count Zero]

These are the plain text main points from the regulation + some observations from me.

Regulation 5 requires a charge point operator, within a specified period, to ensure that a person is able to pay to charge an electric vehicle by contactless payment without entering into a pre-existing contract with the operator. This requirement applies to new public charge points, rapid charge points and existing charge points that are made available to the general public after these Regulations come into force. This does not regulate the tariff so the operator can offer a higher price for contactless Retrofitting to take place within 1 year.

Regulation 6 requires that charge point operators ensure that, within two years of the date that these Regulations come into force, a person is able to pay to charge an electric vehicle using a payment service provided by a third party roaming provider. Useful

Regulation 7 requires that charge point operators ensure that, within one year of the date that these Regulations come into force, their network of rapid charge points is, on average, 99% reliable. It also sets out how reliability is measured. It appears that chargers that have status unknown or are blocked are not included in the measurement of 99% - so a potential loophole as status unknown is too common

Regulation 8 requires charge point operators to provide an annual report to the Secretary of State in respect of the reliability of their network of rapid charge points. Failure triggers enforcement

Regulation 9 requires charge point operators to provide a staffed telephone helpline that is available 24 hours per day to provide assistance to those using their charge points. It also requires charge point operators to record every contact with helpline staff and to submit a quarterly report to the Secretary of State. Useful

Regulation 10 requires charge point operators to hold certain specified data and ensure that the data is accurate, regularly updated and provided to the Secretary of State, Distribution Network Operators, Transmission Owners and Electricity Systems Operators. A charge point operator must ensure that reference data and availability data is made available to the public free of charge and in a machine readable format without any requirement to agree to terms and conditions regarding the use of that data Anyone can develop an app!

Regulation 11 requires charge point operators to clearly display, at or near a charge point, the total price in pence per kilowatt hour for charging an electric vehicle and provides that the total price for charging an electric vehicle may not increase once charging has commenced. Useful

So how sharp are the teeth for the regulations? There is a lot of legalese, but seems that there are different stages:

• Information notice – a warning to provide the info
• Enforcement via a court – if the info is not provided
• Power of Entry & Inspection– to get the info if not provided
• Civil Penalties – up to £10k per charge point for which there has been a breach of regulation 5, 6, 8, 9, 10 or 11 and/or has obstructs the enforcement process