The Public Charge Point Regulations 2023

[evcog]

I believe they have set the criterior that 'all' 8Kw and above chargers should be contactless. I also believe that the suppliers only really want to but in 22Kw and above from now on other than curbside charging for residents in cities and large towns,

 

[5teep]

I'm not absolutely convinced about the cost aspect, most of the chargers have internet connection and adding a card reader isnt overly expensive, the card readers themselves are circa £10 and then a bit of software in the charge controller which are often industrial PC's.

Fitting a card reader into a bit of kit that was not designed to take one, doesn't have the physical connections or software to run it, in a safe and secure way is not going to be cheap. Business doesn't work on the buy it from ebay or amazon principle.
Bear in mind that this cost comes on to the owner. Big business like oil companies could cover it but xyz hotel or community council would have to find funding somewhere. County councils might have tens or hundreds of chargers which would be a huge added cost to the rate/council tax payers and in the end it will come to you and me to pay regardless.

 

[Mitch AC DC]

Someone else said the same. A lot of them wouldn't need anything more complicated than a bus shelter.

Exactly, doesn`t need to be anymore complicated, substantial or expensive, than a glorified Gazebo bolted to the floor.

 

[Rolfe]

Let's be realistic here. Big installations with DC chargers (where people wait around for half an hour to an hour) totally need shelter and rest facilities. And if they can't make money from that they are not trying. EV drivers waiting for their cars to charge are a captive market, mostly absolutely gagging to give someone money for a cup of coffee and a sultana scone. Might be hard to legislate though. It's possible that as purveyors of coffee and cake wake up to the possibilities, it will just happen. If petrol stations can all support small grocer's shops, big charger installations should be an even better opportunity, because the drivers stick around longer.

Smaller installations and single chargers, the sort of thing installed to serve a village, aren't going to merit a Costa Coffee. People will have to make do with what's there. Installations with nothing but AC chargers should be plentiful enough that people will just walk home and leave their cars there.

But shelter? That should be everyone's right. Small installations, big ones, DC only - they all need you to get out of your car and faff around for several minutes. ICE car drivers wouldn't put up with it for five minutes.

Here's an example. It's our local village charge-point on Google Streetview.

View attachment 18991

Looks idyllic, right? And even better, just off the right hand side of the picture is a really nice tearoom. Now imagine it in the pouring rain, at 4C. Not so nice? I got into an argument with someone the other day who insisted it would be an absolutely terrible thing if a canopy was put over this. Dreadful.

Now let's tab down the street about fifty yards.

View attachment 18992

Oh look, a bus shelter. Which is never used by the way, because the bus going that way terminates in the vllage itself less than half a mile on. And there are about three buses a day. That is literally all it would take. But did anyone think of installing something like that when they put the charger there? Not on your nellie, EV drivers can just get soaked.

See the two pictures in this post. Taken less than 50 yards apart. All they need to do is pick up that unused bus shelter from where it is (one stop from the end of the route), cut out most of the seat, and put it over the charging point.

 

[Mitch AC DC]

See the two pictures in this post. Taken less than 50 yards apart. All they need to do is pick up that unused bus shelter from where it is (one stop from the end of the route), cut out most of the seat, and put it over the charging point.

Sounds like a plan.

 

[Gadget Geek]

See the two pictures in this post. Taken less than 50 yards apart. All they need to do is pick up that unused bus shelter from where it is (one stop from the end of the route), cut out most of the seat, and put it over the charging point.

I've got the saw . . .

 

[5teep]

See the two pictures in this post. Taken less than 50 yards apart. All they need to do is pick up that unused bus shelter from where it is (one stop from the end of the route), cut out most of the seat, and put it over the charging point.

Take that charger as an example. If it's left in place any shelter is going to encroach on the road so buses, lorries etc. would have to divert around it. If you want to move the charger back that creates a whole different set of issues. You'd need a layby to get the car and shelter off the road and you'd need to reroute the pavement behind it. Who owns the ground off the path and who's going to pay for the groundworks? Come to that who owns the charger and what price per kwh are they going to have to charge to recoup the expense?

/edit, just saw there is no path so that isn't an issue.

 

[Rolfe]

It's already in a layby. The charger is run by ChargePlace Scotland on behalf of Borders Council. There's no issue putting a roof over that so long as it's no wider than the layby - which it wouldn't need to be. The pavement is on the other side of the road.

 

[Mitch AC DC]

It's already in a layby. The charger is run by ChargePlace Scotland on behalf of Borders Council. There's no issue putting a roof over that so long as it's no wider than the layby - which it wouldn't need to be. The pavement is on the other side of the road.

So, nothing in the way of the plan

 

[5teep]

It's already in a layby. The charger is run by ChargePlace Scotland on behalf of Borders Council. There's no issue putting a roof over that so long as it's no wider than the layby - which it wouldn't need to be. The pavement is on the other side of the road.

Got you, so those are layby markings not lane markings. Still there's the issue of who is going to pay and how much. Council budgets more than most are tight these days and I can't see them willing to spend the time and money to keep the odd driver from getting wet the few times a year the various events coincide (rain/driver needing to charge). More so as if they did one they'd be pressed to do them all.

 

[Mitch AC DC]

I've got the saw . . .

So!, Gadgets got the saw, It`s the will of the people!

shelter or gallows for council megalomaniacs

 

[johnb80]

Fitting a card reader into a bit of kit that was not designed to take one, doesn't have the physical connections or software to run it, in a safe and secure way is not going to be cheap.

Well youre making a lot of assumptions there. Card readers as per used in retail environments generally use a broadband connection to a card processing centre or they link via USB to an EPOS system. BOTH will be available within a rapid charger, no issues there.

Business doesn't work on the buy it from ebay or amazon principle.

We perhaps need to agree to differ on this one

Bear in mind that this cost comes on to the owner.

Yep, just like road tax on cars, onto the owners, your point here is?

Big business like oil companies could cover it but xyz hotel or community council would have to find funding somewhere.

Theyre making much more profit on 5 miles of electricity as opposed to 5 miles of fossil fuels

County councils might have tens or hundreds of chargers which would be a huge added cost to the rate/council tax payers and in the end it will come to you and me to pay regardless.

The cost would be absorbed in the profit they make by selling the electricity.

 

[Mitch AC DC]

The cost would be absorbed in the profit they make by selling the electricity.

The cost would/could be absorbed in the profit
are a possibility, but lets face it, Highly unlikely.

 

[5teep]

Well youre making a lot of assumptions there. Card readers as per used in retail environments generally use a broadband connection to a card processing centre or they link via USB to an EPOS system. BOTH will be available within a rapid charger, no issues there.

Asumptions? no, experience. I've worked with contactless readers for years and I know what's involved. All new bigger chargers must be fitted with them but retrofitting to something that's 10? years old is not going to be cheap if it's even possible.

We perhaps need to agree to differ on this one

To clarify, when a business is dealing with potential harm (up to 600v), there is no taking half measures, companies that do will end up in very deep water.

Yep, just like road tax on cars, onto the owners, your point here is?

My point is as it has been in all my posts that there is no "easy and cheap solution" somebody has to pay and that somebody will be us.

Theyre making much more profit on 5 miles of electricity as opposed to 5 miles of fossil fuels

Now you're making assumptions and most hotels/councils don't sell petrol.

The cost would be absorbed in the profit they make by selling the electricity.

Absorbed by them? not if they want to stay in business.

 

[Rolfe]

Got you, so those are layby markings not lane markings. Still there's the issue of who is going to pay and how much. Council budgets more than most are tight these days and I can't see them willing to spend the time and money to keep the odd driver from getting wet the few times a year the various events coincide (rain/driver needing to charge). More so as if they did one they'd be pressed to do them all.

So we should just shut up and get wet? It's hardly the odd driver a few times a year. The charge point is used several times every day and have you any idea at all how often it rains here?

One thing's for sure, if we all take that defeatist attitude, we'll still be getting soaked in our millions when only a few thousand ICE car drivers are still filling up protected by canopies.

 

[5teep]

So we should just shut up and get wet? It's hardly the odd driver a few times a year. The charge point is used several times every day and have you any idea at all how often it rains here?

One thing's for sure, if we all take that defeatist attitude, we'll still be getting soaked in our millions when only a few thousand ICE car drivers are still filling up protected by canopies.

I'm Scottish, yes I know how much it rains. I also use chargers every working day and I get wet sometimes in the 60 seconds it takes to scan my card and plug my car in.

Defeatist? no realistic. Your contention that it's a simple thing and 'they' should just fix it without taking into account any of the issues in doing so is not realistic. Nobody stopping you from contacting the council though if you really want something done about it. You might get lucky.

 

[Rolfe]

I might. My contention is that many/most of the people making the decisions about charger siting aren't even thinking about shelter. The first charging stations were just stuck in the corner of a car park and drivers left to get on with it, so that's how it's done isn't it? We just go on doing that because it's aye been.

My contention is that unless drivers start to make a bit of noise about it en masse, nothing will change. (Except that it is starting to change, so that's good.)

 

[johnb80]

Asumptions? no, experience. I've worked with contactless readers for years and I know what's involved.

So you would agree the card reader only needs comms for it to work? I have no doubt you have worked with card readers but you seem to have made many incorrect assumptions about the high power side of the charging unit. I spent many years designing and manufacturing microprocessor based industrial controls. I always adopted good industrial practice of optical isolation between high voltage / current and control, typically a 10,000v barrier. In my later years, industrial PC's were used as in many systems today but all of the input and output still went through optical isolation which I guarantee will be the case with the chargers being discussed.

All new bigger chargers must be fitted with them but retrofitting to something that's 10? years old is not going to be cheap if it's even possible.

Why would that be when effectively inside them is an industrial PC controlling the charger.

To clarify, when a business is dealing with potential harm (up to 600v), there is no taking half measures, companies that do will end up in very deep water.

How on earth would you mix the high voltage / high current side of the charger with a card reader, thats a ridiculous viewpoint. The two sides are completely isolated between control and power, usually via optical means.

My point is as it has been in all my posts that there is no "easy and cheap solution" somebody has to pay and that somebody will be us.

Well of course ultimately this is true just as it is with petrol stations etc.

Now you're making assumptions and most hotels/councils don't sell petrol.

No they dont but they do make a profit from selling electricity to EV's, look around at the numerous suppliers of public charging systems, they present a very good case for having a charging point installed, managed by them, and the revenue comes in.

Absorbed by them? not if they want to stay in business.

Consider pay at pump petrol pumps as seen in many garages, who paid for them? it was paid by the profits in selling fossil fuel. Those profits are literally a few pence per litre. Now consider the rapid charger, the profit per kWh is typically 20 to 30p per kWh THATS what will pay for the card reader installation. Furthermore, many older petrol pumps were converted to pay at pump by adding a card reader and you say chargers are dangerous, explosive vapour is also a bit iffy to deal with but it was achieved. Industrial strength card readers with swipe, contact and contactless spec are readily available from companies such as Sony, LG and more at competitive prices.

I dont share your view that this cant be done, I do agree that it may not be done!

The cost would/could be absorbed in the profit
are a possibility, but lets face it, Highly unlikely.

How was it done at petrol stations converting to pay at pump? Is this any different? At petrol stations it wasnt done because of legislation it was the petrol stations themselves that decided it was a good idea.

 

[Rolfe]

Well said.

 

[5teep]

optical isolation which I guarantee will be the case with the chargers being discussed.

I bow to your clearly greater knowledge...

Why would that be when effectively inside them is an industrial PC controlling the charger.

So every charger has the same industrial pc inside it? good to know.

How on earth would you mix the high voltage / high current side of the charger with a card reader, thats a ridiculous viewpoint. The two sides are completely isolated between control and power, usually via optical means.

You hopefully wouldn't but you MUST guarantee that every component is safe and again, I'll leave you to your optical means.

Well of course ultimately this is true just as it is with petrol stations etc.

So while choosing to argue my points you actually agree with me.

No they dont but they do make a profit from selling electricity to EV's, look around at the numerous suppliers of public charging systems, they present a very good case for having a charging point installed, managed by them, and the revenue comes in.

Yeah, profit, you know that stuff you get when you pass your costs on to the consumer.

Consider pay at pump petrol pumps as seen in many garages, who paid for them? it was paid by the profits in selling fossil fuel. Those profits are literally a few pence per litre. Now consider the rapid charger, the profit per kWh is typically 20 to 30p per kWh THATS what will pay for the card reader installation. Furthermore, many older petrol pumps were converted to pay at pump by adding a card reader and you say chargers are dangerous, explosive vapour is also a bit iffy to deal with but it was achieved. Industrial strength card readers with swipe, contact and contactless spec are readily available from companies such as Sony, LG and more at competitive prices.

Again, I bow to your clearly extensive knowledge of the profit margins in the EV industry.

I dont share your view that this cant be done, I do agree that it may not be done!


How was it done at petrol stations converting to pay at pump? Is this any different? At petrol stations it wasnt done because of legislation it was the petrol stations themselves that decided it was a good idea.

Pay at pump? the pumps were replaced which was incredibly expensive but initially born by very big and wealthy oil companies not petrol stations. Wealthy in a way which not so many EV charger owners are.