ChargePlace Scotland overstay fees

Is this based on a personal survey of every EV in the UK? Or just your own belief?

As apparently there are over 200 models capable of atleast 11kW


Yeah, UK charging stations are just jam packed with Maseratis...
Not too many of the car's on that list of 22/11kw capable cars are what you'd call affordable and all those available are very new, i.e. not crowding the streets as yet. My statement is accurate.
 
Yeah, UK charging stations are just jam packed with Maseratis...
Not too many of the car's on that list of 22/11kw capable cars are what you'd call affordable and all those available are very new, i.e. not crowding the streets as yet. My statement is accurate.
Are you able to share any measurable evidence or are we just going on your observations of charging stations?
 
Are you able to share any measurable evidence or are we just going on your observations of charging stations?
How many of the cars on the list have you seen out and about, compared to all the other affordable EV's on UK roads that only do 7kW?An internet search of EV's sold in the UK and then checking their AC charging capability I'm sure will provide the evidence you desire. :)
 
How many of the cars on the list have you seen out and about, compared to all the other affordable EV's on UK roads that only do 7kW?An internet search of EV's sold in the UK and then checking their AC charging capability I'm sure will provide the evidence you desire. :)

Top 10evs sold in UK in 2022 all except the Nissan leaf and MG5 were capable of atleast 11kW on AC
Screenshot_20230514-200748.png


In 2021all except the Nissan Leaf, MINI, Corsa-e and MG ZS were capable of atleast 11kW on AC.

Not looking like 95% of cars are capable of only 7kW


Screenshot_20230514-201224.png
 
I said "most affordable", which isn't always best selling, but good research anyway.

If you look at EVdatabase UK, and list by price low to high, the majority of the most affordable EVs are 7kW.
 
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I asked Bard "how many of the top 20 cars sold in the UK can charge at 11kWh or greater".

The response was

There are 10 of the top 20 cars sold in the UK that can charge at 11kWh or greater. These cars are:
  • Tesla Model 3
  • Tesla Model Y
  • Volkswagen ID.3
  • Volkswagen ID.4
  • Hyundai Kona Electric
  • Kia e-Niro
  • Skoda Enyaq iV
  • Ford Mustang Mach-E
  • Renault Megane E-Tech Electric
  • Nissan Leaf
The remaining 10 cars on the list cannot charge at 11kWh or greater. These cars are:
  • Vauxhall Corsa-e
  • Peugeot e-208
  • MINI Electric
  • Fiat 500e
  • Renault Zoe
  • Smart EQ Fortwo
  • Smart EQ Forfour
  • MG ZS EV
  • Hyundai Ioniq Electric
  • Honda e
It is important to note that the charging speed of an electric car can vary depending on the type of charger being used. For example, a car that can charge at 11kWh on a rapid charger may only be able to charge at 5kWh on a standard charger.
 
I said "most affordable", which isn't always best selling, but good research anyway.
And affordable is multifaceted qualifier, for example a company I worked at previous would subsidise the cost of a Volvo based EV, which made them as "affordable" as a Corsa-e.

Reason being Volvo was a higher end brand without any negative connotations tied to it that other marques had, and they wanted to dissuade people from makes such as Audi or BMW.

Another aspect is affordable is person specific what is affordable to me, will be different to you and each other member here.
 
...Including 2022 in the Bard query came up with this addition, which is off topic but may interest some

Here is a table showing the top 20 cars sold in the UK in 2022, along with their charging speeds:

RankCarCharging Speed
1Tesla Model 3170kW
2Tesla Model Y250kW
3Volkswagen ID.3100kW
4Volkswagen ID.4100kW
5Hyundai Kona Electric80kW
6Kia e-Niro80kW
7Skoda Enyaq iV125kW
8Ford Mustang Mach-E150kW
9Renault Megane E-Tech Electric130kW
10Nissan Leaf100kW
11Vauxhall Corsa-e50kW
12Peugeot e-20850kW
13MINI Electric50kW
14Fiat 500e85kW
15Renault Zoe50kW
16Smart EQ Fortwo22kW
17Smart EQ Forfour22kW
18MG ZS EV76kW
19Hyundai Ioniq Electric72kW
20Honda e31kW
 
This has absolutely zero relevance to the question of whether ChargePlace Scotland should waive its overstay fee when the CCS connector goes down so that someone can hog the charger for ages charging up on the type 2 anyway.
It has been a lively and interesting debate though. I think the relevence is that if your vehicle has the higher spec AC charger, then the overstay fee is less of a problem. If you have the lowest spec charger you'd better hope there are DC chargers within a 20 mile radius. :)
 
Or another type 2 charger where you can get another 20 miles, or which might not have the time restriction on it. There's a decent chance of finding a type 2 that's genuinely intended as a destination charger, I imagine. If you're down to your last few KWh when you land up at a malfunctioning charger and you don't have a backup plan, you've made a mistake somewhere. If you have made that mistake, be damn happy the thing will give you 20 miles and a chance to find other options, I say. Don't start complaining that the type 2 is "useless" under these circumstances, because that is simply not the case.
 
Or another type 2 charger where you can get another 20 miles, or which might not have the time restriction on it. There's a decent chance of finding a type 2 that's genuinely intended as a destination charger, I imagine. If you're down to your last few KWh when you land up at a malfunctioning charger and you don't have a backup plan, you've made a mistake somewhere. If you have made that mistake, be damn happy the thing will give you 20 miles and a chance to find other options, I say. Don't start complaining that the type 2 is "useless" under these circumstances, because that is simply not the case.
omega22 asked for "any thoughts", which we have all given. Please don't start critisizing people because they disagree with your thoughts. Let's all play nice.
 
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Fair enough. Them's my thoughts. I have said in a couple of earlier posts that I do sympathise with his position. I merely think he was operating under a misapprehension of what these chargers are for.

I had a rather different experience with a Chargeplace Scotland charger yesterday evening. I had a ticket for the opera at the Theatre Royal, and after the performance I intended to drive on to stay away overnight before attending a funeral this morning. I could probably (in fact, definitely in hindsight) have done the entire two-day trip on one SR charge, but I wanted a bit more leeway and I wanted to try out the chargers in Cambridge Street car park, next to the Theatre Royal.

There is a four hour limit on these type 2 chargers, and according to the notice they slap a £40 fine on you the second you exceed that time limit. Carmen lasts for three hours, so I timed the start of my charge to give me enough time after the performance to get out of the theatre and disconnect the car.

There are eight type 2 chargers there, and I only saw two other people charging - one guy started while I was waiting to start my charge, and there was a different car charging when I came out of the theatre. But don't overstay, or you'll regret it!

I plugged in and the charger thought about it for a bit and then latched on to the car. I saw the charger say that charging had started, and when I looked inside the car it also read "charging in progress". I left for the theatre. In the foyer I checked the app and saw that the car had already put on a couple of % charge, and was predicted to be at 100% (minus any balancing charge) by nine pm. The opera was scheduled to finish at 10.15 and I had till 10.45 to disconnect, so that was fine.

I got back to the car in good time to find it happily sitting at 100% charge with the app indicating that any balancing had also been completed. Fine. I drove off to my hotel 30 miles away. When I got there I thought I would check how much charge the car had taken. Well.

18/05/2023 17.45 (presumably they run on GMT)
Cambridge Street car park Glasgow
Time elapsed 3 hr 32 mins
Power drawn 0 KWh

Total price £1. That is the connection fee. The charger filled my car up with (I estimate) 13 KWh of electricity and thought it had given me nothing, so charged me nothing for it. I think I actually owed them about £5.20 on top of the connection fee. I'll bet they fix that fault faster than they fix chargers that aren't working at all.

It knew how long I had been connected for. I wonder if it would have charged me a £40 fine if I hadn't come back within the four hours, despite thinking I hadn't received any charge?

That's something I wonder about these chargers in general. If you can't get back to your car in time but you stop the charge using the app, will you still be fined? I have a crawling suspicion that the only way to avoid these fines is to physically unplug the damn car though.
 
I have a crawling suspicion that the only way to avoid these fines is to physically unplug the damn car though.
I suspect you are right.

Personally I don't have a problem with overstay fees. I can see that the fast charger example further up this thread is totally illogical, but it is annoying when you want a charge and someone is just effectively parked up blocking the charger (not that it has happened to me yet but used to see it often enough at the local Tesco).

I can't think of a better way to prevent overstay (blocking). I suppose once there are enough chargers to go round it will be less important, if we ever reach that state. I suppose they could have a longer period on a fast charger but it really is serving it's purpose if people move along fairly quickly.
 
I think the overstay fees are looking to a future that doesn't yet exist. I have never seen these eight connectors at Cambridge Street fully occupied (checking on ZapMaps), and my car was practically alone in its glory on a night when the Theatre Royal was performing the most popular opera in the history of the art. I think most people going into Glasgow for shopping or leisure simply don't need a 4-hour top-up while they're doing it, because they haven't come that far from home. I drive 50 miles to these opera performances (I don't think many come so far) in an SR and even I wouldn't normally need to charge again for the homeward trip. They're anticipating a problem that doesn't actually exist, at least not yet. (And if it did start to exist, just provide more parking spaces with chargers.) Maybe they think it's a nice little earner if people forget, but I suspect the thought of a £40 fine might actually deter people who might otherwise top up while they were in town.

As I already said, I don't think the charger that the OP referred to was illogical at all. It sounds almost identical to our village charger, which is a one-car-at-a-time thing that has three connectors - CCS, CHAdeMO and type 2. There is only this one (1) charger in the village and even though it's not heavily used, the idea that someone might hog it for hours - even if they're "only" using the type 2 connector - isn't a happy one. The type 2 connector is a bit of an afterthought. People might use it to balance their battery cells, for example, or as in this case when the CCS connector was out of service, the type 2 would at least deliver something, probably enough to get to another charger. It's there, and it's occasionally useful, but I can't see any justification for waiving the overstay fee just because the CCS is broken.

I just got back from our village charger. I had 54 minutes 30 seconds on the CCS (30 seconds more and I'd have been in the dreaded overstay fee territory) which brought my car from 26% to 87%. That's quite typical. It's now in the garage going to 100% on its granny charger. However, one is allowed to go back for a second bite after an absence of 90 minutes. A guy who lives less than 100 yards from the charger has no home charging at all, and a 72-reg Tesla. I would suspect he's using the type 2 facility to balance-charge after bringing the car up close to 100% on the CCS. But he's still subject to the overstay fee to keep the charger open for other people.

Personally I think they could waive the overstay fee for a few hours in the middle of the night. There isn't a queue during the day, and it lies all night unused.

I've had another thought. The ChargePlace Scotland chargers used to be free. They only started charging (money) last year. It's entirely possible they were much busier then, being used by people instead of their home electricity which has to be paid for. (Although I never saw the village charger being used much even then, and I pass it all the time as it's at the end of my road.)

I wonder if the fines relate to that period, and were never reconsidered after the charges were imposed? Along the lines of, OK you can have this much free electricity but after that go away and let someone else have a go. But now you're paying (usually) just as much as you would at home, people aren't going to have the same incentive to stay hooked up for hours, and maybe in some cases the fines are excessive.

The village charger overstay fine isn't that excessive, £1 a minute, given that it's the only charger in the place - although as I said I think they should waive it in the middle of the night. I think slapping £40 on the second you breach the 4-hour limit in Cambridge Street is quite draconian, as there are eight connectors there and you can always get one if you want it. As a Wagner fan, I can see me having to come out to move the car during one of the intervals, which is daft when nobody is waiting to use the charger anyway.
 
This is going to be the next national scandal - I had one 2 years ago with a EV hire vehicle (which Enterprise car club just paid without question), charged my employer without any question, these private parking companies are corrupt.
 
The paradox is that they're charging overstay fees on chargers that are not in huge demand. If they were in huge demand, then install some more chargers you can make more money on, you idiots.

I can see the logic with the village chargers. There's only one, and even if it's not heavily used, we don't want people sitting on it for hours. (Yes there are two parking spots, but that's simply to allow people to park the right way round to get their charging port next to the charger. Obviously my car faces the other way when it's charging and occupies the right-hand bay. If you were desperate to be next in the queue you could always park on the other spot to reserve your place, but I have never, ever seen this done.)

1684529055701.png


If Mr Tesla decides to do his balance charge and someone else needs a rapid charge in a hurry, we don't want him on there all day. (All night we could probably cope with.)

But Cambridge Street car park is a huge edifice with about six levels.

1684528717754.png


It has only eight spaces with charging facilities, which are type 2. Why on earth not let people stay as long as they like and if this results in these spaces being fully occupied, just install chargers at some more spaces. They're going to have to do that eventually anyway. One day - which I may not live to see - every parking space will be equipped with a charger. Get in early, I say.
 
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EVM did an interesting piece recently on a van driver who parked his van overnight in a 100KW+? bay, & he deserves everything he gets, but for the vast majority extra overstay charges should be banned - in the next few weeks there is a consultation on this sort of thing with dodgy parking companies, so please respond appropriately.
 
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