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Limited Battery Capacity, Short Range, High Purchase Cost means the EV revolution may face a natural death sooner.. .

@Pecari
Absolutely correct argument. I think the issue for most EV agitators is the behaviour of car companies. Apart from Tesla the same companies that have known how bad ICEs are to the environment and did nothing about it in a hurry, are the same ones we are expecting to quickly deliver cobalt free, lithium free HVB for EVs.
Unfortunately most of them are still holding onto producing ICEs for as long as possible. Ford for example had no mass production line BEV till a few months ago.
I think change to EV is good but we will need to bring these issue surrounding EV's to light and be open minded enough to advocate a lip to a hydrogen economy if car companies and governments continue to display inertia to positive change.
Toyota it is believed have had Tech for cobalt free HVB for over a 2 decades ie before Tesla came into existence yet we are yet to see a cobalt free battery in any Car ICE or EV.
Tesla keeps promising to reduce cobalt but so far nothing has happened.
Tesla battery day is in a couple of weeks so we will see what they announce then.
So far the big battery giants CATL, LeChem and others are not saying much about reducing cobalt and lithium or adopting any environmental friendly methods of mineral / metal sourcing.
Apart from Tesla we have good knowledge of how these companies operate...
..... Sit on any new tech and make as much money with what you have now no matter how polluting it is... And where possible use your tech and PR to disguise or hide your pollution.....
Yes that is how they operate. We as customers should now be knowledgeable and more product aware so as to push for the progress needed.
 
This is chat from an EU report on cobalt
Screenshot_20200807_155812_com.android.chrome.jpg
 
Good that the mining, transport and refinement of crude oil has hardly Any impact on the environment, the climate and life on our planet then.
It's not only what ICEngines put out in the air while running that's contributing to the climate problem...
But that's often most conveniently forgotten in research where ICEngines are compared with BatteryEngines, especially if the research is somewhat older.
Ofcourse Batteries are a problem from mining till recycling (if possible), but nowhere near as bad as ICEngines and the fossil stuff (and Batteries) they need to become alive. The residu after burning is not reduced to co2 alone, but also about a 100 other toxic fumes. That is not recycled too.
 
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It really annoys me when all some people want to do is find the worst in everything these days. I bought an MG ZS EV in March because I was sick of damaging the planet with fumes and paying extortionate prices for fuel. I love driving my electric car and it puts a smile on my face every time I do.
I went shopping the other day on one of the hottest days of the year and sitting at red traffic lights with the window open I was being choked to death by the car next to me pumping out acrid diesel fumes into the atmosphere. Don't tell me that an electric car is doing more damage to the planet than that.

It must have been a really old diesel car then. Modern diesels are very clean compared to older ones.

If you are in the UK, that electric you put in your EV produced an average of around 240gm CO2 / kWh during its manufacture.
 
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That’s the other thing with ICE cars, the systems that control the emissions can go faulty and obviously affect the toxicity of the output. In summary as ICE cars get older or poorly maintained their emissions can go out the window. BEVs on the other hand even if never maintained will still be zero emissions (less brake dust, tyre wear) no matter what the circumstances, I can’t think of anything that could change the emissions of a BEV.

Frank
 
Hi Folks.
I own an EV. I have a ZS EV. I have 2 EV Boffins in my family. I also follow numerous EV industry analysts.
The most fanatic of EV advocates will freely admit to the pollution gap that exit in manufacturing of EV's compared to manufacturing of ICE. And the analysis takes petrol and gas mining / drilling in to the equation.
What true EV advocates are doing now is promoting ways and means of cleaning the EV industry by raising awareness and putting pressure on industry to do the right things going forward.
Unfortunately there is so much ill informed "EVs are so good so good" chatter out there that it is actually hindering true progress and distorting the perception of the issue surrounding EV's in the general population.
@Pecari.. Thanks for the link. We need more of such objective balanced information.
The more awareness increases the more likely and quicker we will move forward better cleaner batteries and EV's.
 
A good ICE will be below 100gms CO2/km

A typical EV will drive around 6 km/kWh. In the UK the average CO2 produced is around 240gms/kWh of electric produced, it does vary by region, being over 400gms/kWh in Wales. That works out at around 40gms/km.

This suggests around a 60% improvement in CO2 emissions in the UK by driving a typical EV against driving a typical ICE.

ICE has greatly reduced both CO2 and Particulates from diesel over the last decade.

You might look around and notice that TESCO are starting to use HGV trucks that are liquid gas powered rather than diesel (though a small amount of diesel is still used to aid combustion). This is new technology that produces almost zero CO2 and no particulates. ICE emissions is being reduced dramatically.

The bigger problem is the environmental damage being done by brake dust and tyre wear. This affects EV as much as it affects ICE for tyre wear.

The world produces around 320,000,000 ICEs every year: 100,000,000 cars; 120,000,000 motor cycles; 100,000,000 truck, rail, agricultural and industrial. There are around 1,000,000,000 cars on the road around the world. There is no way that this will be replaced by battery power.
 
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It must have been a really old diesel car then. Modern diesels are very clean compared to older ones.

If you are in the UK, that electric you put in your EV produced an average of around 240gm CO2 / kWh during its manufacture.
? Very clean? Like the VAG, MB, BMW, GM, PSA and Renault diesels? Why then did most of these car manufacturers stop development of ICEngines? There was also a thing called dieselgate, which resulted in mega fines worldwide for VW and as a result, the high court in Germany made VW to buy back all the cars with diesel Engines involved.
By the way, solar energy directly put into any EV doesn't cost any CO2, nor any other output. Try that with any ICE.
That doesn't mean we don't still polute with EV's but it is a lot less poluting because of their efficiëncy and the durablility to start with.
 
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? Very clean? Like the VAG, MB, BMW, GM, PSA and Renault diesels? Why then did most of these car manufacturers stop development of ICEngines? There was also a thing called dieselgate, which resulted in mega fines worldwide for VW and as a result, the high court in Germany made VW to buy back all the cars with diesel Engines involved.
By the way, solar energy directly put into any EV doesn't cost any CO2, nor any other output. Try that with any ICE.
That doesn't mean we don't still polute with EV's but it is a lot less poluting because of their efficiëncy and the durablility to start with.

Dieselgate was 5 years ago. Now they are cleaner, much cleaner, than a decade ago. Petrol is by far cleaner than it was. NOx from diesel with urea is almost eliminated.

Percentage of owners of EVs using only solar for charging is pretty much zero.

The CNG systems now being used to fuel "diesel" ICE is moving ICE close to EV for emissions.

I have owned EVs for the last 5 years, I don't fool myself into thinking an EV is clean or cleaner than a modern ICE. I prefer the smoothness of power delivery with an EV and always waking up to a "full tank".
 
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Hi Guys,
Thanks for there well informed comments. I am learning and understanding more about the EV vs ICE issue with each comment.
Presently I have a feeling most of EV manufacturers are under pressure to increase range or die while several ICE manufacturers are still producing ICE with the attitude that there is more oil in the earth to be exploited. This is a super toxic mixture as currently there is no way of increasing range except for larger batteries and more pollution and continued ICE production means continued pollution from oil and gas industry. I think unless we pressure the EV markers to improve we are going into a period of worsening pollution. How do you see things going forward?
 
We can talk whatever we want, but as long as there is so much interest in oil extraction, and so much money is also being made and there is ecenomy running on that money.
the reports by the highest paying company will always look the most favorable.
So if we now show reports and not what is not substantiated, we can show what is really true.
And we don't just need to hear opinions that are unsubstantiated
otherwise it is talking to talk and it is only opinions
 
@Pecari
You are right about industry and the fact that money has the loudest voice.
However, I beg to differ about expression of opinions right or wrong.
What current social media has thought us so far in regard to the green agenda is concerned is that discussion in the long run generates positive action. We are very, very right to be discussing these issue and we should do it frankly and where our facts are unsubstantiated and we know it we should acknowledge that but it will be wrong not to discuss these issue because we cannot substantiate our facts. Such an attitude does not promote progress. A small girl from Scandinavia has put climate change on the world's agenda just by talking and writing and there where numerous people on the way telling her "shut up" because she is just a small girl and does not know what she talking about.
Then look at a man called Trump. A well known spreader of "fake news" a president of a country who demands all should listen to him. Are his facts substantiated.
I will rather talk to any of you with any facts substantiated or not.
 
The EV vs ICE debate continues and we as EV users should build up better social media awareness with good well evidence debate.
There has been clear evidence of the harm ICE cause the environment for ages but look how long it is taking for any action to mitigate or stop such harm.
There has also been clear evidence of how harmful battery manufacturing is even before EV manufacture was started and how this harm has escalated since EV manufacture on a large scale started. The worry is the same will apply. It will take ages for any corrective action of that harm unless we all adopt a different attitude than what has been our attitude to the ICE when we deal with issues about EVs. If not, in my opinion the EV revolution will slow or even died out.
We ought to start demanding corrective measures from now while the EV manufacturing is limited before it does more harm than oil and gas did.
In a recent edition of Forbes, the issue of why people are still buying ICE when they could be buying EVs is discussed.
The author highlights a concerted effort by ICE manufacturers and distributors to promote ICE as the main cause of lack of EV uptake irrespective of the high price of EVs.
I personally disagree. I think putting apart higher prices aside, the main issue is that apart from Tesla's Elon Musk, none of the other manufacturers are engaging with the public in a way that will give confidence in the way the relative harm to the environment is being managed in the ICE to EV transition. The other issue is unconscious individual self interest. Many people especially in the major traditional ICE producing nations such as USA and Japan have an unexplained love for ICE and prefer ICE to EV because subconsciously realise that EV manufacture could lead to mass unemployment in the automotive industry.
In fact once the minerals for batteries have been mined, far fewer people are require to manufacture an EV as compared to ICE.
This high tech to human ratio has today made Tesla the most valuable vehicle manufacturer in the world although they manufacture less vehicles and and employ far less people than Mercedes for example.
So there is also a huge social cost in adopting EVs.. It leads to less employment as EV production involves more automation.
All the above factors make me wonder if the EV revolution will now slow down to a halt.
Well may be Tesla will maintain the forward push but at what cost to the environment?
 
Dieselgate was 5 years ago.

Not for me, I literally just joined a class action lawsuit against Mercedes. :D

I imagine Teslas battery day will be the announcement of solid state batteries which not only increases range but removes the need for cobalt.
 
Hi Folks,
Yes Tesla battery day is approaching and last week there were numerous reports on EV batteries and new breakthroughs but none that seemed very market ready. So we still are nowhere except Tesla brings something new and market ready. There is however optimism about Tesla and this weeks EV article in Forbes sums it all up with one word and one phrase..... Range..... Range on single charge.
The author of the Forbes article presents a phenomenon which he claims only Tesla Elon Musk has understood. The phenomenon is that for a EV to be successful especially in America but for that matter anywhere else in the world, it is the current ICE driving majority who will have to buy it. The way to get an EV bought is thus to make it as comfortable and easy to drive and own as an ICE. Tesla has ticked all the boxes here except for one... Range.
So even Tesla with it's massive range seems in Elon Musk's opinion and apparently the opinion of the ICE driving majority has not completely cracked the range issue.
In the authors opinion by 2021 no EV with a EPA range on single charge of less than 300 miles would sell in the USA no matter the price. Tesla battery day is about beating everyone else.... to the over 300mile range on single charge and at a price that current ICE drives will buy.
Truly whichever side of the debate we are on the future of EV is not about us the current EV driver. It's today's ICE driver who determines where we go from here...
Is today's ICE driver saying no way to EVs and if so why......
Apparently only Elon Musk has the answer.
..... Low range apparently is the only outstanding issue even for Tesla. So will this low range issue cause a death to EVs....
Folks what do you think?
 
From personal experience all my friends and relatives, who have expressed great interest in my EV, have firstly asked about range and then about charging arrangements. The range is not their main concern. Everyone is amazed and confused when told about the public charging situation, and they will require much more information about available charging points, charging procedures and payment, to give them the confidence that they could easily 'fill up' their vehicle before they abandon their ICEs and buy an EV!
 


Just to add this in to the discussion not sure if any one has seen this hope the link works.

I'm just about to get my EV and its not lost on me that to build the charger inferstructure will use plant diggers dumpers that run on red diesel and are not great for the environment and pollution from these are high.
 
I've said this over many years, we need more nuclear power plants, not a reduction as is happening now.
Nuclear power is the absolutely most environmentally friendly way to make electricity there is. Coal power plants all know is bad, but there still are being built more of them. Gass and oil aren't good either. Hydro plants , while not polluting the air, destroy a lot of land too. Windmills too makes a high impact on the environment, both on the building process, and when being decommissioned. Solar have quite an impact when being produced, but smaller solar plants, like one would have on your house would be the best option in this, as big plants take up valuable space, and affects insects and animals in the area.
I know nuclear plants isn't completely clean, as there is used a lot of concrete when building them. And concrete isn't exactly environment friendly. It still is a very environmentally friendly way to produce electricity. One should build them inside mountains or into the ground for safety reasons if you ask me, mainly to reduce the sabotage possibility. (We all know there are people out there who definitely would think of sabotaging a powerplant to get their screwed up views enforced on to people)

That said, we really should build more of them, and not be taking them offline, and closing them down! There aren't any good options available at this time.
 
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