MG4 LFP/NMC batteries

[Ian Key]

I guess that's great. You can fast charge a NMC a bit quicker. Risk assessment is it may get thermal runaway or explode. And you just used one of your only 500 cycles. You get 5 times or more cycles with LFP. LFP was more expensive no so long ago. But now with the slave child labour in Africa mining cobalt for some reason it's now more expensive. Perhaps it's to pay for the guy with the AK47 pointed at the child's head. I'm only guessing. So unless you are getting rid of your EV quite soon I would suggest against NMC. Plus would you buy a 2nd hand EV that's a few years old with a NMC battery? You would be mad to do that. But you may if it's LFP. Not NMC. Tesla is changing to LFP. Most manufacturers are. So the guy selling his 2nd hand EV with a NMC battery will be up against much better vehicles for sale.

I think you need to re-do your research.

 

[siteguru]

I guess that's great. You can fast charge a NMC a bit quicker. Risk assessment is it may get thermal runaway or explode. And you just used one of your only 500 cycles. You get 5 times or more cycles with LFP. LFP was more expensive no so long ago. But now with the slave child labour in Africa mining cobalt for some reason it's now more expensive. Perhaps it's to pay for the guy with the AK47 pointed at the child's head. I'm only guessing. So unless you are getting rid of your EV quite soon I would suggest against NMC. Plus would you buy a 2nd hand EV that's a few years old with a NMC battery? You would be mad to do that. But you may if it's LFP. Not NMC. Tesla is changing to LFP. Most manufacturers are. So the guy selling his 2nd hand EV with a NMC battery will be up against much better vehicles for sale.

I think someone has been watching too much John Cadogan and misinterpreting what's been said.

 

[Haggis]

Where did you pull those random figures f

I read them and it knocked me flat. I couldn't believe the difference. Anyway I can't remember where I read it. But I did find this one. This one says 1000 charges. The one I read was 500. Whatever it is it's a lot less than LFP. Some won't care because they may get rid of their EV and get a new one. Others may plan on keeping it for 10 or 15 years. That's when it will matter. There is no doubt that NMC needs to be managed by the owner or it's life could be cut even more drastically. Do not charge them to over 80% is important I've read. So if the app won't allow this you will have to work it out. Perhaps a timer or something. Where LFP is fine. Just plug it in and 100% is fine. I live in Australia and thermal runaway would worry me. I charge at work in a hospital underground carpark. After driving then plugging it in when it's a hot day the battery is hot. Well it would be on my mind. I wouldn't worry with LFP. It's not the car I worry about. If its out in the open it can burn away. It's where I park it to charge that worries me. I already have an i-miev that I park in the underground carpark right under where patients are. So no NMC for me. I couldn't live with myself of the hospital was burned or patients injured or worse. Anyway here is the article I found. But not the 500 one.

How Long Do NMC Batteries Last? (Time Duration) - The Power Facts

NMC batteries have a high energy density and are good for high discharge rates. They also have a long life span and are stable at high temperatures.

thepowerfacts.com

NMC batteries typically last for around 1000 charge/discharge cycles before needing to be replaced, while LiFePO4 batteries can last for 3000-5000 cycles

 

[Rolfe]

Honestly, you are worrying unnecessarily. Even NMC batteries are expected to outlast the car they're in. The older EVs running around now with well over 100,000 miles on the clock and counting mostly have NMC batteries. If you never worried about your ICE car bursting into flames inside a car park then why are you worrying about an NMC battery? ICE cars go on fire 20 times as often as EVs, and that includes NMC-battery EVs.

I know where you're coming from, these were part of the motivation for me buying the LFP battery version too. But your attitude is a massive over-reaction.

 

[Rolfe]

I read them and it knocked me flat. I couldn't believe the difference. Anyway I can't remember where I read it. But I did find this one. This one says 1000 charges. The one I read was 500. Whatever it is it's a lot less than LFP. Some won't care because they may get rid of their EV and get a new one. Others may plan on keeping it for 10 or 15 years. That's when it will matter. There is no doubt that NMC needs to be managed by the owner or it's life could be cut even more drastically. Do not charge them to over 80% is important I've read. So if the app won't allow this you will have to work it out. Perhaps a timer or something. Where LFP is fine. Just plug it in and 100% is fine. I live in Australia and thermal runaway would worry me. I charge at work in a hospital underground carpark. After driving then plugging it in when it's a hot day the battery is hot. Well it would be on my mind. I wouldn't worry with LFP. It's not the car I worry about. If its out in the open it can burn away. It's where I park it to charge that worries me. I already have an i-miev that I park in the underground carpark right under where patients are. So no NMC for me. I couldn't live with myself of the hospital was burned or patients injured or worse. Anyway here is the article I found. But not the 500 one.

How Long Do NMC Batteries Last? (Time Duration) - The Power Facts

NMC batteries have a high energy density and are good for high discharge rates. They also have a long life span and are stable at high temperatures.

thepowerfacts.com

NMC batteries typically last for around 1000 charge/discharge cycles before needing to be replaced, while LiFePO4 batteries can last for 3000-5000 cycles

Look, even that article says the NMC battery can be expected to last for 5,000 full charging cycles, not 500, and it's not even talking about car batteries, but about batteries in phones and things like that. Car batteries have additional protections built in (like sequestering off the top and bottom few percent of charge) to extend longevity - a lot. It says the batteries have a long life span and are stable at high temperatures.

Do calm down.

 

[tsedge]

I think someone has been watching too much John Cadogan and misinterpreting what's been said.

That man has a lot to answer for!

 

[Kithmo]

I just Googled and found one quote of 2,000 and more charge cycles for NMC batteries

 

[Haggis]

No, not really, because the degradation with any type of battery is irrelevant unless you do a zillion miles. With the LR, 250 miles per cycle means you'll get 125,000 miles out of 500 cycles, which is negligible degradation. It will matter if you are a taxi driver or one of those million milers, but not otherwise.

Batteries of both types will outlive the vehicle and be repurposed as stationary storage for decades, most likely.

I don't know about that. I have an i-miev and it's battery is on the way out. It's never had a fast charge. Only home socket. Plus I wrote the following somewhere here about reading LFP is 2000 cycles NMC is 500 cycles.

How Long Do NMC Batteries Last? (Time Duration) - The Power Facts

NMC batteries have a high energy density and are good for high discharge rates. They also have a long life span and are stable at high temperatures.

thepowerfacts.com

NMC batteries typically last for around 1000 charge/discharge cycles before needing to be replaced, while LiFePO4 batteries can last for 3000-5000 cycles

I read them and it knocked me flat. I couldn't believe the difference. Anyway I can't remember where I read it. But I did find this one. This one says 1000 charges. The one I read was 500. Whatever it is it's a lot less than LFP. Some won't care because they may get rid of their EV and get a new one. Others may plan on keeping it for 10 or 15 years. That's when it will matter. There is no doubt that NMC needs to be managed by the owner or it's life could be cut even more drastically. Do not charge them to over 80% is important I've read. So if the app won't allow this you will have to work it out. Perhaps a timer or something. Where LFP is fine. Just plug it in and 100% is fine. I live in Australia and thermal runaway would worry me. I charge at work in a hospital underground carpark. After driving then plugging it in when it's a hot day the battery is hot. Well it would be on my mind. I wouldn't worry with LFP. It's not the car I worry about. If its out in the open it can burn away. It's where I park it to charge that worries me. I already have an i-miev that I park in the underground carpark right under where patients are. So no NMC for me. I couldn't live with myself of the hospital was burned or patients injured or worse. Anyway here is the article I found. But not the 500 one.

 

[tsedge]

This is required watching for anyone worrying about anything to do with EVs, including fires, batteries dying early:

 

[Haggis]

No, not really, because the degradation with any type of battery is irrelevant unless you do a zillion miles. With the LR, 250 miles per cycle means you'll get 125,000 miles out of 500 cycles, which is negligible degradation. It will matter if you are a taxi driver or one of those million milers, but not otherwise.

Batteries of both types will outlive the vehicle and be repurposed as stationary storage for decades, most likely.

I don't know about that. I have an i-miev and it's battery is on the way out. It's never had a fast charge. Only home socket. Plus I wrote the following somewhere here about reading LFP is 2000 cycles NMC is 500 cycles.

Ridiculous misinformation!

NMC lifespan is easily >200,000 miles which is good enough for anyone who is not a taxi driver, new or second hand through 10-15 years.

Explosion/fire risk is tiny and far less than with ICE, which people never think about.

Regarding mining practices, there's a steady effort to reduce the dependency on cobalt, plus plenty of other modern devices use rare earths (practically) all tech so I don't know whether you borrowed someone's computer or phone but if you have your own you are guilty of the same crime and could be called a hypocrite.

Please stop spouting nonsense.

My i-miev has 70,000kms and it's battery is almost done. It's all very well to do cycles time distance on paper. Not in reality. I know from experience. And NMC needs to be monitored by the owner much more than LFP.

 

[Rolfe]

This is also brilliant for putting the minds of NMC owners at rest. Sure there are battery management routines they should think about that LFP owners don't have to bother about, but the reality is seriously non-scary.

 

[Haggis]

I don't know about that. I have an i-miev and it's battery is on the way out. It's never had a fast charge. Only home socket. Plus I wrote the following somewhere here about reading LFP is 2000 cycles NMC is 500 cycles.

My i-miev has 70,000kms and it's battery is almost done. It's all very well to do cycles time distance on paper. Not in reality. I know from experience. And NMC needs to be monitored by the owner much more than LFP.

And I charge in a hospital carpark. Can't risk thermal runaway with patients just above where the car is recharging. It's where I currently charge my i-miev. Safety first always under those conditions. It has to be my first condition. Could live with myself if anything happens to a patient.

 

[Rolfe]

Do people park ICE cars there? Because if there's that level of risk they definitely should not be doing that.

 

[tsedge]

I don't know about that. I have an i-miev and it's battery is on the way out. It's never had a fast charge. Only home socket. Plus I wrote the following somewhere here about reading LFP is 2000 cycles NMC is 500 cycles.

My i-miev has 70,000kms and it's battery is almost done. It's all very well to do cycles time distance on paper. Not in reality. I know from experience. And NMC needs to be monitored by the owner much more than LFP.

The i-Miev is old technology on a Lithium Ion basis, not the same as modern platforms like the MG4. Yes, older technologies like that (and the Nissan Leaf) which are in some cases still on sale, suffer significant battery degradation over time but this is not true of modern thermally managed NMC or LFP batteries.

The number of cycles is better for LFP but the lifetimes even of NMC are so huge that it really doesn't matter - it is better than ICE no matter how you look at it.

And NMC can be safely and regularly charged to 100% no problem - indeed it is recommended to do this at least once a month to keep it in balance. I charge mine to 100% whenever I need the extra range, I don't even think about it and it does not require any extra monitoring.

I suggest and recommend more reading to get a broader perspective - for example if you watch that video I recommended you'll see fleet operators with 100,000s of modern EVs have experienced ZERO thermal runaway episodes / fires.

 

[Martinonline]

I'm afraid repeating a statement does not make it true. There was a large fire at Luton airport carpark recently, it will be interesting to know what caused it. My Trophy has limits to 80% which I have to override. I suspect other NMC cars have the same.

 

[fnegroni]

I'm afraid repeating a statement does not make it true. There was a large fire at Luton airport carpark recently, it will be interesting to know what caused it. My Trophy has limits to 80% which I have to override. I suspect other NMC cars have the same.

It was established it was a diesel car. (More details in posts that follow by more knowledgeable members)
Some speculated a 12v electrical fire as it’s very common.

 

[tsedge]

I'm afraid repeating a statement does not make it true. There was a large fire at Luton airport carpark recently, it will be interesting to know what caused it. My Trophy has limits to 80% which I have to override. I suspect other NMC cars have the same.

It was caused by a diesel Range Rover catching fire - ah, beaten to it by @fnegroni MG4 SE SR gen1

 

[Rolfe]

I'm afraid repeating a statement does not make it true. There was a large fire at Luton airport carpark recently, it will be interesting to know what caused it. My Trophy has limits to 80% which I have to override. I suspect other NMC cars have the same.

Just to add to the echo in here, the car that caught fire was a 2015 Land Rover Range Rover Sport, with a diesel engine. The number plate has been read from one of the videos, and the MOT details looked up online.

It's obvious it was already on fire when it was driven into the car park, but the driver only realised once he was through the ticket barrier. He stopped the car in the middle of the driveway and some people (presumably including the driver) tried to tackle it with fire extinguishers but were unsuccessful and retreated.

A friend who knows Range Rovers suggested flammable material such as leaves getting caught under the vehicle where it's hot, overheating and setting off the catalytic converter. There's plenty to burn in a modern car, and once it gets hot enough the diesel in the tank overheats and the tank leaks or explodes, spraying hot diesel everywhere.

 

[tsedge]

Just to add to the echo in here, the car that caught fire was a 2015 Land Rover Range Rover Sport, with a diesel engine. The number plate has been read from one of the videos, and the MOT details looked up online.

It's obvious it was already on fire when it was driven into the car park, but the driver only realised once he was through the ticket barrier. He stopped the car in the middle of the driveway and some people (presumably including the driver) tried to tackle it with fire extinguishers but were unsuccessful and retreated.

A friend who knows Range Rovers suggested flammable material such as leaves getting caught under the vehicle where it's hot, overheating and setting off the catalytic converter. There's plenty to burn in a modern car, and once it gets hot enough the diesel in the tank overheats and the tank leaks or explodes, spraying hot diesel everywhere.

Yes the reports of lots of explosions in the car park most likely were ICE fuel tanks going up. The EVs will have burned intensely and contributed plenty of heat but less likely to explode as I understand it.

 

[Rolfe]

In the thread about the incident someone posted a link to the report on a similar incident in Sweden, where an ICE car started a fire in which a lot of EVs were caught up. The conclusion was that the EVs hadn't made the fire any worse than it would have been otherwise.