MG4 LFP/NMC batteries

[Storm]

So, I did a video on getting a pre-order of an MG4 in Australia:


One of the commenters said the MG4 base has an LFP battery, and the others have NMC. I didn't believe it at first (none of the YouTube reviews said this iirc), but checked on it and it's true apparently:

MG MG4 Electric - Battery type

MG MG4 Electric (all model variants) - Battery type: Lithium Iron Phosphate (LFP), Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt (NMC)

www.myevreview.com

I'm assuming they went NMC on the LR and Trophy due to the extra weight an LFP would be.

Another commenter (Wildreefer) said:
"according to my calculations, the LR versions @80% have almost the exact same range as the SR (LFP) version @100% - so basically all you're getting on the LR version is the ability to go to 100% from time to time for longer trips. Not sure if that's worth the extra money, but for some it may be worthwhile."

Which is a good question.

So, does this change what you would choose?

I was thinking the LR would be the best option, if the Trophy was too much more, but now I'm not so sure.

Thoughts??

 

[bear1]

I went SR because I didn't want to spend more.

But, I think the idea that the larger battery is less worthwhile because of the chemistry is stretching things a bit. You can charge the battery to 100%, you just don't want to leave it there for long. For some people that extra range will be needed every day. For me, maybe four times a year; not worth it.

 

[WalkingBootWeather]

The LR also charges faster. According to MG website the difference is modest (135KW v 115KW) but we have seen videos of LR holding near 140KW up to 50% SoC. Don't think I've seen anyone get much more than about 80KW from a SR for any length of time.

If you rarely do more than 150 miles in a day then the SR is just fine. If you are travelling much further on more than an occasional basis then the extra range and faster charging of the LR will be welcome.

 

[memo]

Yep we chose the Luxury (trophy) mainly because we couldn't stand the black interior but also because we regularly travel to madrid. malaga france, UK etc so the longest range possible. even though I would charge it only to maybe 60 to 80 % max normally. In fact if they launch the 77kwh battery before I get our order or we know definately it wouldn't be long after and the price extra wasn't stupid then I would cancel this and order the bigger battery

 

[Storm]

Yep we chose the Luxury (trophy) mainly because we couldn't stand the black interior but also because we regularly travel to madrid. malaga france, UK etc so the longest range possible. even though I would charge it only to maybe 60 to 80 % max normally. In fact if they launch the 77kwh battery before I get our order or we know definately it wouldn't be long after and the price extra wasn't stupid then I would cancel this and order the bigger battery

The Trophy has a lighter interior? Did they add a ceiling light or change the colour of the ceiling?

 

[Oberoy]

The Trophy has a lighter interior? Did they add a ceiling light or change the colour of the ceiling?

On the euro version it's always been available, not available in the UK.

 

[cocole]

I went for an SR due to the fact it has a LFP battery.
I don't need the extra range (I have a Tesla for the longer journeys) + the ability to charge at 100% on a regular basis is a bonus for me.
The 80% rule on my ZS EV Mk 1 is a nightmare because there's no way to limit it in the car and there's no app. I suspect it's better in the Mk2 ZS and any other MG that has the app / refresh interior.

 

[memo]

The Trophy has a lighter interior? Did they add a ceiling light or change the colour of the ceiling?

Yep my Spanish MG4 has the grey/white interior option. But only on the Luxury your Trophy

 

[barrym01]

This may help, and explain why I've opted short range. If charging the bigger battery most of the time to 80% [216 miles] to prevent degradation/damage then why spend thousands more for the trophy? if you're purely evaluating battery use, and not the extra toys [When you can also easily retrofit a heated seat pad, and reversing camera].

The base Standard Range model with its 51kWh (50.8kWh usable) battery offers a 218-mile WLTP range, which beats Stellantis cars such as the Vauxhall Corsa-e and Peugeot e-208. It’s also worth mentioning that this battery pack uses a Lithium Iron Phosphate (LFP) chemistry, which is more tolerant of charging to 100%. So you can happily use the entire capacity more of the time without worrying about damage.

The Long Range battery has a Nickel Cobalt Manganese (NMC) chemistry, however, so will be best kept between 50% and 80% during everyday usage, with 100% just for longer trips. This 64kWh pack (61.7kWh usable) enables a very healthy 281 miles with the SE Long Range, and 270 miles for the Trophy Long Range, since the latter is a little heavier and its spoiler causes drag.

All these figures are great, with the Long Range cars challenging the excellent larger battery versions of the Kia e-Niro / Niro EV and Hyundai Kona. They beat the non-Tour VW ID.3 and trounce Stellantis’s offerings.

You only get 7kW AC charging, with no 11kW option. A regular 7.4kW home wall box will charge the Standard Range battery in 7.5 hours and the Long Range in 9 hours. DC charging is excellent, however. The Long Range can charge at up to 135kW, so takes just 35 minutes to go from 10 to 80% – exactly what you need for a pit stop during a long journey. This drops to a still decent 117kW for the Standard Range, so this car takes a lightly longer 39 minutes to go from 10 to 80%. This will mean longer journeys remain possible, particularly as the LFP battery can handle 100% rapid charging more regularly

 

[siteguru]

As you've obviously lifted that word-for-word from a review elsewhere (apart from the first paragraph) it would be good practice to cite your source.

Edit: I'm going to guess it was here: MG4 EV 2022 Review

 

[barrym01]

As you've obviously lifted that word-for-word from a review elsewhere (apart from the first paragraph) it would be good practice to cite your source.

Edit: I'm going to guess it was here: MG4 EV 2022 Review

It was, my apologies

 

[tsedge]

This may help, and explain why I've opted short range. If charging the bigger battery most of the time to 80% [216 miles] to prevent degradation/damage then why spend thousands more for the trophy? if you're purely evaluating battery use, and not the extra toys [When you can also easily retrofit a heated seat pad, and reversing camera].

The base Standard Range model with its 51kWh (50.8kWh usable) battery offers a 218-mile WLTP range, which beats Stellantis cars such as the Vauxhall Corsa-e and Peugeot e-208. It’s also worth mentioning that this battery pack uses a Lithium Iron Phosphate (LFP) chemistry, which is more tolerant of charging to 100%. So you can happily use the entire capacity more of the time without worrying about damage.

The Long Range battery has a Nickel Cobalt Manganese (NMC) chemistry, however, so will be best kept between 50% and 80% during everyday usage, with 100% just for longer trips. This 64kWh pack (61.7kWh usable) enables a very healthy 281 miles with the SE Long Range, and 270 miles for the Trophy Long Range, since the latter is a little heavier and its spoiler causes drag.

All these figures are great, with the Long Range cars challenging the excellent larger battery versions of the Kia e-Niro / Niro EV and Hyundai Kona. They beat the non-Tour VW ID.3 and trounce Stellantis’s offerings.

You only get 7kW AC charging, with no 11kW option. A regular 7.4kW home wall box will charge the Standard Range battery in 7.5 hours and the Long Range in 9 hours. DC charging is excellent, however. The Long Range can charge at up to 135kW, so takes just 35 minutes to go from 10 to 80% – exactly what you need for a pit stop during a long journey. This drops to a still decent 117kW for the Standard Range, so this car takes a lightly longer 39 minutes to go from 10 to 80%. This will mean longer journeys remain possible, particularly as the LFP battery can handle 100% rapid charging more regularly

In practice, nobody has reported getting over 87kW with the SR, so the LR is significantly better for a fast charge.

The reason for having a bigger battery is the ability to use it to 100% when you are doing a long journey. There is no problem charging to 100% so long as it isn’t left for a long period of time at that state of charge.

LFP is great for safety and cheaper and if that’s all you need fantastic. But there are advantages in the NMC battery.

Edit: Also people are getting 11kW AC charging with the LR (with suitable cable and charger), as stated in the manual.

 

[memo]

This may help, and explain why I've opted short range. If charging the bigger battery most of the time to 80% [216 miles] to prevent degradation/damage then why spend thousands more for the trophy? if you're purely evaluating battery use, and not the extra toys [When you can also easily retrofit a heated seat pad, and reversing camera].

The base Standard Range model with its 51kWh (50.8kWh usable) battery offers a 218-mile WLTP range, which beats Stellantis cars such as the Vauxhall Corsa-e and Peugeot e-208. It’s also worth mentioning that this battery pack uses a Lithium Iron Phosphate (LFP) chemistry, which is more tolerant of charging to 100%. So you can happily use the entire capacity more of the time without worrying about damage.

The Long Range battery has a Nickel Cobalt Manganese (NMC) chemistry, however, so will be best kept between 50% and 80% during everyday usage, with 100% just for longer trips. This 64kWh pack (61.7kWh usable) enables a very healthy 281 miles with the SE Long Range, and 270 miles for the Trophy Long Range, since the latter is a little heavier and its spoiler causes drag.

All these figures are great, with the Long Range cars challenging the excellent larger battery versions of the Kia e-Niro / Niro EV and Hyundai Kona. They beat the non-Tour VW ID.3 and trounce Stellantis’s offerings.

You only get 7kW AC charging, with no 11kW option. A regular 7.4kW home wall box will charge the Standard Range battery in 7.5 hours and the Long Range in 9 hours. DC charging is excellent, however. The Long Range can charge at up to 135kW, so takes just 35 minutes to go from 10 to 80% – exactly what you need for a pit stop during a long journey. This drops to a still decent 117kW for the Standard Range, so this car takes a lightly longer 39 minutes to go from 10 to 80%. This will mean longer journeys remain possible, particularly as the LFP battery can handle 100% rapid charging more regularly

In all the YouTube videos I have seen the best anybody got was 88kw peak, well below the published 117kw peak even when starting at 10% soc on the SR, LFP batteries have a flatter charge curve but are harder to get high charge rates.

Where'as I have seen many videos where people are getting up to 144kw with the LR, NMC battery, well above the 135kw publish max rate. One reviewer I saw also showed the graph of the charge curve of his charging session, which was impressively flat until around 60% soc and that session only took 25 min from 10 to 80% soc a full 10 min faster than published.

Even though the LFP battery is much more tolerant to charging to 100% and has a longer cycle life it will still have a longer life if you charge to 80% only.

Also main thing that NMC batteries don't like is charging to 100% and then leaving them in that state of charge for long periods, if you just charge to 100% overnight and use that charge next morning on a long journey say, then then the battery should be ok.

Also the LR has a 11kw AC charger on board and the Luxury (your trophy) at least here in Spain, has a heat pump installed.

 

[Stageshoot]

Also the LR has a 11kw AC charger on board and the Luxury (your trophy) at least here in Spain, has a heat pump installed.

We get the 11Kw 3 Phase AC but no Heat Pump on the UK Trophy.

 

[Martijn]

How about the battery life of LTP in comparison to NMC? Do you think the SR (LTP) will write off less in comparison to the LR (NMC)?

 

[siteguru]

LFP not LTP (Lithium Iron Phosphate [LiFePo])

LFP is more resilient to the number of charge cycles, and also to 100% charging, but this is at the expense of weight. (LFP is heavier than NMC for the same power rating).

 

[Stageshoot]

How about the battery life of LTP in comparison to NMC? Do you think the SR (LTP) will write off less in comparison to the LR (NMC)?

Really dont know, but the bigger the battery the less charge cycles needed to cover the same distance,

So 64 against 51 so the bigger battery has a 20% head start. on charge cycles over the same distance

My policy has always been to get the biggest battery there is as

10% Degredation on a 64kw battery leaves you with 57.6Kw
10% Degredation on a 51kw battery leaves you with 45.9Kw

So the bigger battery should have a longer useful range life.

So over 25000 Miles the Larger battery will use approx 100 Charge Cycles
the Smaller battery will use approx 125 Charge Cycles

Lets say after 50k miles its degraded 10% (Probably wont have going by other EVs but as worst case). 250 Miles Range on large battery car will drop to 225
200 Miles Range on small battery car will drop to 180 Miles.

 

[Martijn]

Really dont know, but the bigger the battery the less charge cycles needed to cover the same distance,

So 64 against 51 so the bigger battery has a 20% head start. on charge cycles over the same distance

My policy has always been to get the biggest battery there is as

10% Degredation on a 64kw battery leaves you with 57.6Kw
10% Degredation on a 51kw battery leaves you with 45.9Kw

So the bigger battery should have a longer useful range life.

So over 25000 Miles the Larger battery will use approx 100 Charge Cycles
the Smaller battery will use approx 125 Charge Cycles

Lets say after 50k miles its degraded 10% (Probably wont have going by other EVs but as worst case). 250 Miles Range on large battery car will drop to 225
200 Miles Range on small battery car will drop to 180 Miles.

That is a good insight indeed. Thank you. I have also read this report about battery health. It seems like LFP batteries last much much longer than NMC batteries. The following is stated in the report.

The LFP cells exhibit substantially longer cycle life spans under the examined conditions: 2500 to 9000 EFC vs 250 to 1500 EFC for NCA cells and 200 to 2500 EFC for NMC cells. Most of the LFP cells had not reached 80% capacity by the conclusion of this study for the NCA and NMC cells, and their longer-term degradation will be reported in a later work.

 

[someguy]

There should be a SR Trophy, the SR would have had sufficient range for me, even if it dropped to 70%, and the time for degradation on LFP would have been longer.

I wanted the heated seats and wheel, and the cameras - I may occasionally use the range, but it would have been fine to have to charge a SR on the road occasionally. I ordered a the LR trophy spec as I plan to keep the car long term, and IMO buying the right car and using it long term is better from an overall co2 emissions perspective than having to buy a different one after a few years just to get the bits you were missing.

 

[NoSkill]

That is a good insight indeed. Thank you. I have also read this report about battery health. It seems like LFP batteries last much much longer than NMC batteries. The following is stated in the report.

View attachment 13142

Whilst I'm not disputing the results of that study, LFP batteries definitely have their benefits, but in the context of EVs and more specifically the MG4 it's a missing a bit of context, imo.

The LR/Trophy (e.g NMC) batteries are bigger and so can be capped to 80% in general use to provide the same range as the SR (LFP) at 100% give or take, this is likely to mostly or maybe even entirely mitigate the inherent chemistry differences.

Also neither versions are likely to go to 0% on a regular basis, or ever.

Also it uses a, fairly slow, but consistent charge/discharge rate (0.5C). My understanding is that during driving and also rapid charging would easily exceed this, and NMC are 'better' at high charge/discharge rates, although I'm no expert and not entirely sure what impact this has on longevity.

All this is really moot though, buy the one that suits you best whether that's range/cost/spec. For me I do a 200 mile drive once a month, for this in the SR I would need to charge on the way, for the LR/Trophy I wouldn't, add in the spec of the Trophy and for me that range and spec are far more important than battery chemistry that can be mitigated against.