Nov 17th Budget - Tax impact for EVs

[Lovemyev]

For me it's the following:

EV's are so much better to drive, with far more elegant engineering and simplicity of maintenance.

No local pollution at all, this is essential to get to in towns and cities. Walking down a main road at rush hour is currently hideous in most places.

Further, lower life cycle CO2 emissions are also important to me.

I also enjoy the much lower running costs in my case, (currently about 5% of equivalent ICE, increasing to 10% as of the new year) but if costs were the same, there's no way I'd be going back to ICE, ever!

My circumstances, just for reference, (and I do fully accept EV's don't work well for some people yet!) I'm quite well off, charge exclusively at home at the end of my drive, and almost never need to exceed the range of my battery (over 300 miles in worst conditions) in one trip.

Thank you for your views and a very honest response.

 

[JohnInFrance]

I have to take issue with you on this. Apart from being free of local pollution, EV's cause demonstrably less pollution over the whole life cycle. You're "nothing more" is nonsense frankly.

I know, that's why I wrote in an erlier part of the thread that the break-even point on pollution/carbon is significantly further into an EV's lifecycle and they are NOT a green option, walking is - perhaps read all the way through first eh?

Also, don't assume most people think like you do and would happily use the sh***est form of polluting ICE vehicle if costs were on a par with EV.

I don't, while you're quick to be rude an throw stones and make assumptions, perhaps you'd like to read what I wrote rather than jumping into your EV driver/keyboard warrior persona? I'll copy it here just in case you missed it: " ...

if there were no price difference, then I'd go ICE by choice every time as journey and refuelling times are generally less."

Perhaps you can explain where I made the assumption that either you or "most people" would make that choice, 'cos I sure as heck don't see it there.

The only assumption I've made, and I make it now, is that you cannot hold a reasonable conversation without reverting to losing your temper; but that's fine, everyone is different and that's how it should be.

 

[JohnInFrance]

Was you solely attracted back then, by cheaper running cost of use at the time, or by the driving experience received from an EV maybe / maybe not over a fossil car ?.

Absolutely, I love driving our EV, but is it more fun? Nope, not even close. We brought one for one reason and one reason only, to lower our travel costs and it has delivered in spades for that.

Has the “honeymoon / love affair” of EV’s started to quickly “wane away” in some way now, as the incentives are clearly being eroded quickly now ?.

I think for some it will have. For us, operating costs are key but yes, we also got an enormous incentive from the French gov't to buy, far larger than offered in the UK and that also contributed to the decision to buy as we never lease, so have to consider the 'whole life' costs of owning any car, whether EV or otherwise.

Cost plays a massive part in this given the cost of living crisis we are likely to be stuck in for a while.

Agreed, and the EV still delivers cost savings in operation that would make changing it back to an ICE more expensive, but the question was “IF the total price of running your EV became the same as the cost of running an ICE car, would you consider reverting BACK to a fossil car ?” - and that's very different to what reality will push upon us.

There is likely to be another hike in fuel duty costs in the new year I think, we all know what that is likely effect that is going to have on peoples live’s for sure !.

I agree, hence the original question was quite academic anyhow, but it has spurred at least one person already into ire, and that alone makes it worth asking in my book

 

[Paulie68]

I know, that's why I wrote in an erlier part of the thread that the break-even point on pollution/carbon is significantly further into an EV's lifecycle and they are NOT a green option, walking is - perhaps read all the way through first eh?

I don't, while you're quick to be rude an throw stones and make assumptions, perhaps you'd like to read what I wrote rather than jumping into your EV driver/keyboard warrior persona? I'll copy it here just in case you missed it: " ...

Perhaps you can explain where I made the assumption that either you or "most people" would make that choice, 'cos I sure as heck don't see it there.

The only assumption I've made, and I make it now, is that you cannot hold a reasonable conversation without reverting to losing your temper; but that's fine, everyone is different and that's how it should be.

You stated they were no better than ICE at all apart from local pollution. I said they were demonstrably better, not green.

Was I rude? Serious question, I have Asperger's so tend to be blunt, don't think I was rude, but maybe by normie standards I was.

Fair enough on your third paragraph.

Losing my temper? Not at all. Chill out fella, you seem to be taking talking to total strangers on the internet a bit too seriously.

 

[Lovemyev]

Absolutely, I love driving our EV, but is it more fun? Nope, not even close. We brought one for one reason and one reason only, to lower our travel costs and it has delivered in spades for that.


I think for some it will have. For us, operating costs are key but yes, we also got an enormous incentive from the French gov't to buy, far larger than offered in the UK and that also contributed to the decision to buy as we never lease, so have to consider the 'whole life' costs of owning any car, whether EV or otherwise.


Agreed, and the EV still delivers cost savings in operation that would make changing it back to an ICE more expensive, but the question was “IF the total price of running your EV became the same as the cost of running an ICE car, would you consider reverting BACK to a fossil car ?” - and that's very different to what reality will push upon us.



I agree, hence the original question was quite academic anyhow, but it has spurred at least one person already into ire, and that alone makes it worth asking in my book

Thank you for taking the time to reply !.

 

[smokie]

There is likely to be another hike in fuel duty costs in the new year I think, we all know what that is likely effect that is going to have on peoples live’s for sure !.

I think it was in the OBR document where they said there will be a 12p a litre rise in fuel duty in 2023, though I'm not sure this is cast in stone. It's been the same since 2011 apparently

That makes about £120 difference to your average 10k pa driver so maybe unpleasant but not that life-changing really.

The way I see it, for too long we've wanted everything for the bottom price and finally the chickens are coming home to roost, bringing hardship, business bankruptcies and public services dropping to the level we seem prepared to pay for.

 

[Hairyfool]

That £120 (or £10 per month) works out in the region of £5bn tax revenue, a very small value compared to the money spent on Covid. I always felt that every announcement of help during Covid should have include a warning that it will eventually have to be paid for.

I just wish that government would bite the bullet and put up income tax by 1p to rebalance the economy for that specific purpose. They would then have the glory of reducing it once done with. With very crude rounding on average salaries, tax relief etc that also works out at £10 per month.

 

[4ND]

Also, don't assume most people think like you do and would happily use the sh***est form of polluting ICE vehicle if costs were on a par with EV.

Like yourself, who own an ICE?

 

[4ND]

For me it's the following:

EV's are so much better to drive, with far more elegant engineering and simplicity of maintenance.

No local pollution at all, this is essential to get to in towns and cities. Walking down a main road at rush hour is currently hideous in most places.

Further, lower life cycle CO2 emissions are also important to me.

I also enjoy the much lower running costs in my case, (currently about 5% of equivalent ICE, increasing to 10% as of the new year) but if costs were the same, there's no way I'd be going back to ICE, ever!

My circumstances, just for reference, (and I do fully accept EV's don't work well for some people yet!) I'm quite well off, charge exclusively at home at the end of my drive, and almost never need to exceed the range of my battery (over 300 miles in worst conditions) in one trip.

Considering each paragraph:
1) 'For me'
2) Personal opinion.
3) Maybe kind of true, but then you own an ICE car
4) So important you still own an ICE car
5) 'my case'
6) 'My circumstances'

 

[4ND]

Without a doubt - EVs are not green and we are kidding ourselves if we think they are, they are emission free at the point they are driven, nothing more.

All transport produces waste and emissions, even horse and cart, so for me it's all about cost - we love our EV, it's become our daily when we never thought that it would, but that's mainly because it is the cheapest option - if there were no price difference, then I'd go ICE by choice every time as journey and refuelling times are generally less.

Excellent remarks

 

[Paulie68]

Like yourself, who own an ICE?

I own an ICE like one owns an antique steam roller, it's a collectible, I'm not driving around using it for daily transport. It's emissions are utterly inconsequential. I'm not suggesting I don't cause pollution at all.

 

[Paulie68]

Considering each paragraph:
1) 'For me'
2) Personal opinion.
3) Maybe kind of true, but then you own an ICE car
4) So important you still own an ICE car
5) 'my case'
6) 'My circumstances'

Well it is all about me, after all I'm Asperger's and probably have some narcissistic tendencies as well (My wife says so, so it must be true )

 

[4ND]

I own an ICE like one owns an antique steam roller, it's a collectible, I'm not driving around using it for daily transport. It's emissions are utterly inconsequential. I'm not suggesting I don't cause pollution at all.

Key words 'I own an ICE ' (car)

 

[Paulie68]

Key words 'I own an ICE ' (car)

So what?

 

[4ND]

Absolutely, I love driving our EV, but is it more fun? Nope, not even close. We brought one for one reason and one reason only, to lower our travel costs and it has delivered in spades for that.


I think for some it will have. For us, operating costs are key but yes, we also got an enormous incentive from the French gov't to buy, far larger than offered in the UK and that also contributed to the decision to buy as we never lease, so have to consider the 'whole life' costs of owning any car, whether EV or otherwise.


Agreed, and the EV still delivers cost savings in operation that would make changing it back to an ICE more expensive, but the question was “IF the total price of running your EV became the same as the cost of running an ICE car, would you consider reverting BACK to a fossil car ?” - and that's very different to what reality will push upon us.



I agree, hence the original question was quite academic anyhow, but it has spurred at least one person already into ire, and that alone makes it worth asking in my book

Excellent remarks

 

[Lovemyev]

I think it was in the OBR document where they said there will be a 12p a litre rise in fuel duty in 2023, though I'm not sure this is cast in stone. It's been the same since 2011 apparently

That makes about £120 difference to your average 10k pa driver so maybe unpleasant but not that life-changing really.

The way I see it, for too long we've wanted everything for the bottom price and finally the chickens are coming home to roost, bringing hardship, business bankruptcies and public services dropping to the level we seem prepared to pay for.

BBC have covered this in an recent article.

Petrol prices: Why are they going back up?

Motoring organisations warn price rises will pile pressure on families and small businesses.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[tsedge]

That £120 (or £10 per month) works out in the region of £5bn tax revenue, a very small value compared to the money spent on Covid. I always felt that every announcement of help during Covid should have include a warning that it will eventually have to be paid for.

I just wish that government would bite the bullet and put up income tax by 1p to rebalance the economy for that specific purpose. They would then have the glory of reducing it once done with. With very crude rounding on average salaries, tax relief etc that also works out at £10 per month.

1p on the basic rate of tax would raise about £5bn a year, not a huge amount.

 

[tsedge]

Mmmm …… Interesting quick responce !.
It would be great to hear what other EV owners think on this subject.
Was you solely attracted back then, by cheaper running cost of use at the time, or by the driving experience received from an EV maybe / maybe not over a fossil car ?.
This could get really interesting ( for me anyway ) to hear peoples responses.
Has the “honeymoon / love affair” of EV’s started to quickly “wane away” in some way now, as the incentives are clearly being eroded quickly now ?.
Cost plays a massive part in this given the cost of living crisis we are likely to be stuck in for a while.
There is likely to be another hike in fuel duty costs in the new year I think, we all know what that is likely effect that is going to have on peoples live’s for sure !.

My interest in an EV is not about cost of running it, that’s a bonus at best, it is because I prefer the driving experience which I think is streets ahead of ICE. EVs are safer, more spacious, reliable and technologically advanced.

I know some people prefer ICE and like changing gears and the noise and sensations. Good for you, enjoy. It isn’t my bag.

Environmentally, EVs dramatically reduce tailpipe emissions and so local air pollution is much better in built up areas, so I am strongly in favour of tax and other incentives on those grounds alone. I care little about the macro climate change arguments, although EVs do enable lower emissions if power generation sources are changed.

 

[4ND]

BBC have covered this in an recent article.

Petrol prices: Why are they going back up?

Motoring organisations warn price rises will pile pressure on families and small businesses.

www.bbc.co.uk

If the Gov't are going to jack up fuel duty by silly values, I'll have a word with them and they won't bother doing it then.
If the sheduled EV VED cheeses enough people off, I'll have a word with the Gov't and tell them not to introduce it. Once I've said no, they probably won't go through with it.

 

[AK OK]

I always smiled when I received the tax notification on my old Bentley T1 they kept telling me to buy a car with a smaller engine etc to save on road tax!. Seemed odd to me as a 6.75 litre V8 cost zero to tax!!! (There are so many loopholes in the existing system) The ecconomy on the road tax was somehow lost with 12 mpg !!!.
It will be interesting to see how they recoup tax for EVs. I must be remembered that the road tax is only a small fraction of the revenue generated. Somehow they are going to have to find away of taxing the Electric used as they collect approx £1/ litre on Diesel at the moment which means that they are going to loose £1500 - £2000 a year for everyone who swaps from ICE to EV .
Now let me think how are they goint to tax the sunshine that feeds my solar panels that feeds my EV ?

Using your smart meter that you've installed to sell excess back to the grid for a few weeks in summer