Range issues - Filing a "Warranty Claim" on our Battery or "Rejecting" the purchase

[basicsboy]

Hi everyone - I'm keen to hear if anyone has had a similar experience with their range cars, or if we are expecting too much from it.
In essence - we don't feel the car's range is as advertised, and are therefore beginning the process of rejecting the purchase (but first attempting to file a warranty claim). I may have some data which shows our battery is particularly poor, but I'm coming on here to share it with you all, and see if you've seen similar things on your journeys too.

My wife and I picked up our ZS EV in around April 2020 and were over the moon with it to begin with. Clearly it's great value for money when compared against other EVs at the time (and even now to be fair). Our plan was to use this as our primary car, and we road trips might get a little more inconvenient - but to be honest we've enjoyed the change of pace - stopping for coffee or a walk with our dog more regularly etc.

We get a lot of joy from driving through central London without paying the congestion charge, and from using the car for small journeys. We advice from Fully Charged very much to heart - that is "90% of your journeys can be done on a single charge, so don't worry about splashing out on the 200+ mile range EVs"

We live in London, and have a 40 mile journey to my parents (40 miles) and a 50 mile journey to my wife's parents. We don't trust the car to do those return journeys on a single full charge.

We also wanted the car to be able to travel to or from Bristol (120 miles) on a single charge. Not a chance in our minds.

We have used the car to go to Devon 3 times too (215 miles) - which should be one or two stops only, right? Instead, we feel the need to stop 3 or 4 times.

Using the wonderfully objective EV Database page for the ZS EV the real range is advertised as 95-210 miles. 95 miles being highway driving at 10 degrees below zero. That "worst case scenario" feels like our status quo.

What's almost as frustrating as the range, is how poorly the dash estimates that range. We've run a bunch of tests and found that while highway driving on eco, the range drops 3 miles for every 1 mile we drive. So - if we can't trust the range, perhaps we can trust the KWh when charging.

Take for example 1 stint of our journey down to Devon at the end of April - Temperature was 11 degrees celsius.
Leave McDonalds Wincanton with a 159 mile range (94% charge)
Arrive at Exeter Racecourse with 34 miles.
That's a 64 mile journey, which took 124 miles off the range.
According to the charger at Exeter Racecourse and our car, we arrived with 24% battery. So we'd lost 70% of our battery doing 65 miles. That implies a full range of 92 miles.
Herein lies the rub though: We charged from 24% to 97% at Exeter Racecourse, with 21.9kwh. Given that ZS EVs have a 44.5 kWh battery, 21.9kwh should equate to 49% increase in charge, but our car suggested it was 73%.

If 21.9kwh equals 73% of a full battery charge, that implies that 100% equals 30kwh. That also implies a car that has a battery performing at 67% of the level advertised.

I have a few more examples to rely on - and have taken pictures to back this up - do you think I'm justified in pursuing a warranty claim on the battery here, and if that fails, rejecting the car outright (probably with some legal help) through the protections offered to us by getting the car on finance?

Below is what our Dealer has said so far after describing our situation over the phone.
"We'd get the car in, and do a diagnosis on the fault that you've got. If it's obvious, then we can carry it out ourselves upto £1000 in value. If it's a problem with the battery I can't authorise it, I'd need to authorise that with MG. They have an online system to report the faults and a technical teal which will look into the fault.

If a replacement part is needed then that will be done.
The range issue you're having is something you're not alone in having, it does take a while for the range to come back. There's no magic way for me to equalise the battery other than regular charging of it, which will bring it back into line. MG may not replace the battery, and expect us to use the car long enough to have the range come back."

"After the Software update on 22nd March, would be expecting it to have improved by now. I'd expect you to be driving 120 miles comfortably, but you've mentioned that you wouldn't trust the car to do 90 miles from the home following a slow charge."

Keen to hear your thoughts.

 

[Lovemyev]

Hi everyone - I'm keen to hear if anyone has had a similar experience with their range cars, or if we are expecting too much from it.
In essence - we don't feel the car's range is as advertised, and are therefore beginning the process of rejecting the purchase (but first attempting to file a warranty claim). I may have some data which shows our battery is particularly poor, but I'm coming on here to share it with you all, and see if you've seen similar things on your journeys too.

My wife and I picked up our ZS EV in around April 2020 and were over the moon with it to begin with. Clearly it's great value for money when compared against other EVs at the time (and even now to be fair). Our plan was to use this as our primary car, and we road trips might get a little more inconvenient - but to be honest we've enjoyed the change of pace - stopping for coffee or a walk with our dog more regularly etc.

We get a lot of joy from driving through central London without paying the congestion charge, and from using the car for small journeys. We advice from Fully Charged very much to heart - that is "90% of your journeys can be done on a single charge, so don't worry about splashing out on the 200+ mile range EVs"

We live in London, and have a 40 mile journey to my parents (40 miles) and a 50 mile journey to my wife's parents. We don't trust the car to do those return journeys on a single full charge.

We also wanted the car to be able to travel to or from Bristol (120 miles) on a single charge. Not a chance in our minds.

We have used the car to go to Devon 3 times too (215 miles) - which should be one or two stops only, right? Instead, we feel the need to stop 3 or 4 times.

Using the wonderfully objective EV Database page for the ZS EV the real range is advertised as 95-210 miles. 95 miles being highway driving at 10 degrees below zero. That "worst case scenario" feels like our status quo.

What's almost as frustrating as the range, is how poorly the dash estimates that range. We've run a bunch of tests and found that while highway driving on eco, the range drops 3 miles for every 1 mile we drive. So - if we can't trust the range, perhaps we can trust the KWh when charging.

Take for example 1 stint of our journey down to Devon at the end of April - Temperature was 11 degrees celsius.
Leave McDonalds Wincanton with a 159 mile range (94% charge)
Arrive at Exeter Racecourse with 34 miles.
That's a 64 mile journey, which took 124 miles off the range.
According to the charger at Exeter Racecourse and our car, we arrived with 24% battery. So we'd lost 70% of our battery doing 65 miles. That implies a full range of 92 miles.
Herein lies the rub though: We charged from 24% to 97% at Exeter Racecourse, with 21.9kwh. Given that ZS EVs have a 44.5 kWh battery, 21.9kwh should equate to 49% increase in charge, but our car suggested it was 73%.

If 21.9kwh equals 73% of a full battery charge, that implies that 100% equals 30kwh. That also implies a car that has a battery performing at 67% of the level advertised.

I have a few more examples to rely on - and have taken pictures to back this up - do you think I'm justified in pursuing a warranty claim on the battery here, and if that fails, rejecting the car outright (probably with some legal help) through the protections offered to us by getting the car on finance?

Below is what our Dealer has said so far after describing our situation over the phone.
"We'd get the car in, and do a diagnosis on the fault that you've got. If it's obvious, then we can carry it out ourselves upto £1000 in value. If it's a problem with the battery I can't authorise it, I'd need to authorise that with MG. They have an online system to report the faults and a technical teal which will look into the fault.

If a replacement part is needed then that will be done.
The range issue you're having is something you're not alone in having, it does take a while for the range to come back. There's no magic way for me to equalise the battery other than regular charging of it, which will bring it back into line. MG may not replace the battery, and expect us to use the car long enough to have the range come back."

"After the Software update on 22nd March, would be expecting it to have improved by now. I'd expect you to be driving 120 miles comfortably, but you've mentioned that you wouldn't trust the car to do 90 miles from the home following a slow charge."

Keen to hear your thoughts.

So, am I correct in thinking you already have the latest BMS update released on the 15th Jan 2021.
Your car does sound like it had been affected by the "Buggy" software versions.
I would of expected the dealer to run a SOH check on the HV Battery pack first ?.
This will prove / disprove your fears.
I am a little surprised by the statement :- "There's no magic way for me, to equalise the battery".
This is a quote from the dealer ?????.
I ask this because dealers are authorised by MG to take the car in and balance the HV pack for customers.
Handing the car back only when the pack is fully balanced.
You don't say how you are charging your car ?.
Do you charge at home or on a wall box or "Granny" or are you using a public charging post or rapid units.

 

[Tim Green]

How fast do you drive on these long trips?
How loaded is the car, eg how many passengers?
However, it does sound as though it is faulty.

 

[JodyS21]

VOLTAGE Voltage voltage!!!!!!!!
What is your fully charged voltage?
It basically sounds like you suffered bad from the buggy BMS and your battery pack is way out of balance and therefore the capacity it is allowing to be used of the battery pack is drastically reduced.

There is tons on this forum about it.

Remember, reset your trips to reset the GOMs calculations to bring it back to the WLTP calculated range.
It is pointless for example having trips saved that are for low speed journeys/good efficiency, then expecting the GOM to be correct for then doing for instance a high speed journey/with bad efficiency.

 

[basicsboy]

So, am I correct in thinking you already have the latest BMS update released on the 15th Jan 2021.
Your car does sound like it had been affected by the "Buggy" software versions.
I would of expected the dealer to run a SOH check on the HV Battery pack first ?.
This will prove / disprove your fears.
I am a little surprised by the statement :- "There's no magic way for me, to equalise the battery".
This is a quote from the dealer ?????.
I ask this because dealers are authorised by MG to take the car in and balance the HV pack for customers.
Handing the car back only when the pack is fully balanced.
You don't say how you are charging your car ?.
Do you charge at home or on a wall box or "Granny" or are you using a public charging post or rapid units.

Yep - we got that update in March.

Not sure what an SOH check is? Would they run that by default - they are aware of our issues. That is indeed a quote from our dealer!

When we first got the update we charged on a 3-pin through the window for a few full charges, then we carried on using our podpoint at home.

Re balancing the pack - we were first advised to 'run the full charge down and only then charge it' rather than 'keeping it topped up'. A month ago we received the opposite advice from the same dealership. I just feel like MG HQ are a bit all over the place with the advice here.

Interesting point on the dealership equalising the battery themselves - good to know, thankyou.

 

[basicsboy]

How fast do you drive on these long trips?
How loaded is the car, eg how many passengers?
However, it does sound as though it is faulty.

70 to preserve the battery.

Me and the Mrs, she does have a fair few pairs of shoes but I don't think I can place the blame there.

 

[JodyS21]

Highly recommend get a cheap ODB2 bluetooth dongle and app to look at the data. Have a look on forum for details.

 

[basicsboy]

VOLTAGE Voltage voltage!!!!!!!!
What is your fully charged voltage?
It basically sounds like you suffered bad from the buggy BMS and your battery pack is way out of balance and therefore the capacity it is allowing to be used of the battery pack is drastically reduced.

There is tons on this forum about it.

Remember, reset your trips to reset the GOMs calculations to bring it back to the WLTP calculated range.
It is pointless for example having trips saved that are for low speed journeys/good efficiency, then expecting the GOM to be correct for then doing for instance a high speed journey/with bad efficiency.

I don't care too much about the dash's mileage estimate to be fair, it's the % charged and the kWh that went in that concern me.

Does that change your point at all on voltage (I imagine not) - what can I do at home to get my fully charged voltage? Will that change much between the cars recent use, if it's urban or motorway driving?

I do feel like EV owners could do with a crash course on understanding more about their cars!

 

[JodyS21]

70 to preserve the battery.

Me and the Mrs, she does have a fair few pairs of shoes but I don't think I can place the blame there.

70 is fast for driving an EV efficiently lol.

If you can, I'd recommend trying out a couple of different speeds to see what the consumption is at different speeds.
E.g.
on a clear long road(A road/motorway), set cruise control to 50, reset trips, do 10 miles and observe the KwpM trip data.
Repeat is again at 60 and again at 70mph.
I'd expect a reasonable different in consumption efficiency, say range 100miles @ 50mph vs 90miles @ 60mph vs 80miles @ 70mph

 

[JodyS21]

I don't care too much about the dash's mileage estimate to be fair, it's the % charged and the kWh that went in that concern me.

Does that change your point at all on voltage (I imagine not) - what can I do at home to get my fully charged voltage? Will that change much between the cars recent use, if it's urban or motorway driving?

I do feel like EV owners could do with a crash course on understanding more about their cars!

No, the fully charged voltage is the most important thing to know, it's vital in understanding if that is the issue (it sounds like it).
Fully charge AC & ideally let it do a complete (10 hour) balance too. Unplug.
Start car without HV battery i.e. do not hold brake pedal down when pressing the start button twice.
Toggle to you voltage/amps screen on the dash display.
Amps should be 0 or maybe 1 - this shows the HV battery is not under any load. Read the voltage.
With the BMS you have, it should read 449/450Volts if it is all ok.

 

[Lovemyev]

No, the fully charged voltage is the most important thing to know, it's vital in understanding if that is the issue (it sounds like it).
Fully charge AC & ideally let it do a complete (10 hour) balance too. Unplug.
Start car without HV battery i.e. do not hold brake pedal down when pressing the start button twice.
Toggle to you voltage/amps screen on the dash display.
Amps should be 0 or maybe 1 - this shows the HV battery is not under any load. Read the voltage.
With the BMS you have, it should read 449/450Volts if it is all ok.

I totally agree.
You need to check your HV pack voltage AFTER the car has charged and balanced, by using the method explained above.
IF you have the latest update and it has been applied correctly, your pack voltage should be around 448 - 450 volts.
Please report back.
Remember to reset the accumulative trip counter also.
Charging AND balancing can only be achieved by using either the wall box or a “ Granny” unit.
Not by using a rapid charger, if fact using a rapid is likely to increase the imbalance in the pack, if the BMS software is incorrect.
Remember when charging at home, do NOT unplug the cable when the car indicates 100% fully charged !.
This is when the balancing process starts.
When charging the MG badge light will slowly pulse, when it enters the balancing cycle, the light will omit a steady constant soft glow, now it is balancing !.
Let it do it’s thing, the car will switch off the wall box etc when the balance has completed.
There is LOTS of brilliant posts regarding this under the BMS threads.
If you have a home energy meter installed, you can actually see what the car is pulling via this meter.
Again, all covered on the BMS thread.
The balancing can take a long time to perform IF your pack is out of balance.
The car will try for about 10 hours to balance it, but after this it will give up and try again on the next charge cycle.
This is normal, my first charge and balance after the update had taken over 12 hours !.
The balancing process pulls around 500 Watts to start with, then reduces down to about 350 and then 175 Watts, just before it completes.
Either a dongle or if you prefer, the dealer can pull a state SOH ( State Of Health ) condition of your pack and print off the results.
They should offer to balance the pack for you, under request which means you are likely to be without your car for a while.
But most people decide to balance the pack themselves, at home.
As a side note, if you are travelling at a almost 70 Mph ( ish ) on the motorway, your consumption is going to be high.
And also competing at the traffic light Grand Prix with Mr White Van Man, is also going to increase your consumption.
EV’s in this respect, are no different than an ICE car.
The difference being, you are not sitting on the same level of excess energy stored under the car.
Your predicted range on the GOM is a rough calculation, based on your previous trips, therefore if your driving style is a little more “Urgent” let’s say, then don’t expect your predicted range to be high the following day.
The figures that people are achieving ( m/kWh ) is likely to be much much
different.
But it will give you a good indication of how the car is being driven.
If you are achieving less than 3 m/kWh in the summer, then your driving is “Hurried” to say the least .
Using the HVAC system is big consumer of range also.
Expect to see around 10 miles of your predicted range instantly disappear, if you demand a lot of heat or cooling to the cabin.
Again, no difference to an ICE car in this respect generally.
First job, reset your trips before you are ready to charge next.
Make sure you have every thing you can turned off !. ( HVAC is important ).
Then fully charge and fully balance the pack !.
Boot up the car to the READY state without applying pressure to the foot brake.
Scroll through the menus using the up and down buttons on the right side of the steering wheel, until you get to the section that displays your HV pack voltage.
What does it report ????.
Do you agree with this advice @JodyS21 .

 

[Phil Hayward]

"As a side note, if you are travelling at a almost 70 Mph ( ish ) on the motorway, your consumption is going to be high."
I am pleased with my consumption at Motorway speeds.
This was journey from Somerset to near Stroud with the aircon on a very hot day, I get 3.3 Miles per KW in cold weather with the heater on.

 

[Mikalosh]

To add to the data, I do a regular trip to Blackpool every week I set ACC to 65mph and at the moment ac on and I achieve 3.8mKWh,if that helps

 

[Electrifried]

Yep - we got that update in March.

Not sure what an SOH check is? Would they run that by default - they are aware of our issues. That is indeed a quote from our dealer!

When we first got the update we charged on a 3-pin through the window for a few full charges, then we carried on using our podpoint at home.

Re balancing the pack - we were first advised to 'run the full charge down and only then charge it' rather than 'keeping it topped up'. A month ago we received the opposite advice from the same dealership. I just feel like MG HQ are a bit all over the place with the advice here.

Interesting point on the dealership equalising the battery themselves - good to know, thankyou.

Your one does appear on first glance to have issues.
After the faulty update it took us 2 months of recharging to get the car back to where it was. This involved lots of charging at even very low usage between charges, we also had weird situations of the charger restarting a balance charge immediately after just switching off the charger on an overnight charge often doing this 3/4 times in a row. Then miraculously it just stopped doing all the strange stuff and has been fine ever since. We never really have situations where we get the range really low but we do regularly do a 101ml journey every weekend and always end up with around 55 to 80mls left on the GOM depending on how we drove and ventilation/ heater requirements.

 

[Deleted member 3150]

@basicsboy you seem to be having the same frustrations I had with the ZS. The car is great for short radius trips but simply can’t be relied on for long journeys unless you drive it like you are in a hypermiling championship contest. A great car at a great price but was far too frustrating for our longer trips. My solution was to cut our losses and upgrade it to the HS PHEV, a whole deal more luxurious and can still do our short trips in EV mode. We got a great trade through deal too.

 

[jamesie]

@basicsboy you seem to be having the same frustrations I had with the ZS. The car is great for short radius trips but simply can’t be relied on for long journeys unless you drive it like you are in a hypermiling championship contest. A great car at a great price but was far too frustrating for our longer trips. My solution was to cut our losses and upgrade it to the HS PHEV, a whole deal more luxurious and can still do our short trips in EV mode. We got a great trade through deal too.

The ZS can be relied on for long journeys without changing driving style.

 

[Nibloprice]

We have done many journeys to a destination 50/60miles away and back without charging. I do push the range though - I dont mind arriving at home in London with 5miles left knowing that I can charge on a lamppost in our road. Or at the very very worst at the many chargers around London. 70mph is definitely too much. I usually do 60-65 max, and vary between cruise control or not depending on the type of road. If it us hilly, I generally go without to get regen back, which does make a massive difference.

And for long journeys, I generally look for chargers at the 100mile mark. London to Plymouth on the A303 and stopping at Wincanton as you mentioned, we have done in one stop.

I found the lower the range left, the more you can trust the GOM.

As someone else mentioned, it very much depends on the load in the car, temperature and weather - but that is going to be the same in all EVs. Their advertised distances are in perfect weather and the small print says as much.

 

[Mgzs ev]

The ZS can be relied on for long journeys without changing driving style.

Yes yesterday i made a trip from 260 kilometers...al highway the gom are perfect by me i love the mg with factory bms 455 volt

 

[Kithmo]

As @Nibloprice mentioned 70 mph is a bit too much to expect to match the WLTP figure of 163 miles from a full charge. I think the average speed of the WLTP test is only around 28-32 mph.
The drag on the car increases exponentially as the speed goes up and there will be quite a difference between 60 and 70 mph on a car with the aerodynamics of a house brick.

 

[mj224]

60mph on the motorway gets good consumption. But I prefer to 65mph, which usually results in 51 miles there, and back. Leaving about 30 miles spare according to the GOM. (total 132 miles), at summer temps..