MG ZS EV Long Range - Rapid Charging Test - 76kW Peak?

Hi Miles, so if ambient temperature is above 10 the battery heater won't heat up the battery to optimal charging temperature (hoping between 20-30)?

Also any consumption figures for LR ZS in winter and others. Which OBD dongle will work with LR ZS to keep an eye on battery temp? Thanks

Winter range with a BEV is between 20% to 30% below summer range.

I use this OBD2 dongle with the Thia App:

 
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It's in the chemistry as I understand it and the difference between how LFP and older Li-Ion respond to being charged to 100%.
OK, we're in agreement so far.

LFP cells in a pack when fully charged just stop charging without harm and other cells in the pack carry on absorbing charge,
Both LFP and ternary (NMC, NCA etc) chemistry cells will absorb energy if over-charged. When LFP first came out, they actually stated the fully charged voltage as about 4.2 VPC (Volts Per Cell), with the never-exceed voltage as about 4.6 V (from memory; that was before 2010). But they soon worked out that there is little to no extra energy stored above 3.6 V, and the degradation became intolerable above 3.6 V, so that was the new recommendation. A few chargers still aim for 3.65 VPC, so that every cell becomes full, and assuming that the BMS will pull the higher voltage ones back to about 3.6 V with a bypass resistor or other technique.

so naturally, when charging the pack to 100% the pack is balanced.
Not at all. Even though there is little energy above the somewhat arbitrary 100% point, some will be charged to say 100.3% on that scale. There is no magic process that levels them off at 100%, even if the BMS doesn't report higher than 100%. So they still need balancing, which MG are calling equalising (see below for how this causes confusion).

On the other hand, Li-Ion Packs you have to stop charging the pack when the BMS sees the highest cells in the pack reach max voltage, since to continue"Charging", would be damaging to the highest charged cells.
The above is actually correct, because LFP cells are Li-Ion cells. But I'm pretty sure you meant to say only ternary (NMC etc) cells will "continue charging". They all do. Some react more violently than others to over-charging.

Balancing is a process which starts after the main charging session finishes and is a selective low rate charge focused on the cells in the pack or groups of cells in the pack quite often that had been left behind as it were and have a lower voltage/SOC.
I agree, except that actually it's easier to focus on the ones with the highest voltage, either burning off energy in resistors, or attempting to transfer that energy to the cells presently showing lower voltage. I get the impression that the schemes to transfer energy are a bit gimmicky, and not practical at EV pack size, so most cars use resistors, affecting only the higest voltage cells.

It is necessary for Li-Ion packs because repeated charging cycles without balancing will increase the SOC differential between the best and the rest.
Again, this is true of all chemistries.

its impact on the range is that the BMS reports Empty when the cells with the lowest SOC reach their lowest discharge point and not when the majority of cells do. To continue to discharge a cell beyond will cause terminate damage to that cell.
Agreed.

So what I'm saying is that the LFP pack probably doesn't really benefit from any extended time connected after the pack reaches 100% unlike [ ternary ] Li-Ion.
What I'm saying is that there is nothing magical and auto-balancing about LFP cells, and they need the balancing just the same. Failing to balance will impact actual range just the same as any other chemistry. It may be that LFP cells, being a somewhat simpler chemistry, are easier to manufacture with tight tolerances, but it seems to me that even if they match very well when made, they will eventually experience different environment (one end of the pack is in the sun, for example), so that balancing will always be needed.

This is why if you build a DIY Pack with LFP individual cells you can disable the balance charge when configuring the BMS.
Supplementary Note:
"3. Equalize Charge:
No equalize charge is required for the LiFePO4 battery. If equalize stage cannot be disabled from your charge controller, ..." ( DIY LiFePO4 Battery Pack )
Ah! This must be the source of the confusion. The "equalise charge" referred to above is a special over-charging stage specifically for flooded lead-acid batteries. Lead acid cells actually DO have a (slightly) magical equalising property: when you over-charge them, they boil off water from the electrolyte, but mostly the acid remains in the cell. It's easy and indeed necessary to replace the water in these cells anyway, so it's no big deal. The equalise charge is several hours at a quite high charge voltage (e.g. 15-16 V on a nominally 12 V battery), which is well above the gassing voltage for those cells (14.4 V for nominally 12 V). So this is a very crude way of balancing the individual cells in a flooded lead-acid battery. Note that in a lead-acid module, like a car starter battery or even the auxiliary battery in our MGs, there is no access to the individual cells; only to the block of (for 12 V nominal batteries) six cells in series. Lead acid cells have such a short life that for the sealed versions, which these days is most of them, they don't worry about balancing at all.

So basically the equalise charge referred to above is not the same as the equalisation process that happens at the end of charging our cars. So this advice is NOT saying that equalisation (really cell balancing) is not needed for LFP chemistry cells. It's saying that if you have the facility to over-charge your battery, don't do that for LFP, only for lead acid. In the house battery world, ternary chemistry is still fairly uncommon, so it's not even mentioned in the above. But of course, if you do happen to have the equalise charge facility, you should not use it on battery composed of ternary cells either.
 
OK, we're in agreement so far.


Both LFP and ternary (NMC, NCA etc) chemistry cells will absorb energy if over-charged. When LFP first came out, they actually stated the fully charged voltage as about 4.2 VPC (Volts Per Cell), with the never-exceed voltage as about 4.6 V (from memory; that was before 2010). But they soon worked out that there is little to no extra energy stored above 3.6 V, and the degradation became intolerable above 3.6 V, so that was the new recommendation. A few chargers still aim for 3.65 VPC, so that every cell becomes full, and assuming that the BMS will pull the higher voltage ones back to about 3.6 V with a bypass resistor or other technique.


Not at all. Even though there is little energy above the somewhat arbitrary 100% point, some will be charged to say 100.3% on that scale. There is no magic process that levels them off at 100%, even if the BMS doesn't report higher than 100%. So they still need balancing, which MG are calling equalising (see below for how this causes confusion).


The above is actually correct, because LFP cells are Li-Ion cells. But I'm pretty sure you meant to say only ternary (NMC etc) cells will "continue charging". They all do. Some react more violently than others to over-charging.


I agree, except that actually it's easier to focus on the ones with the highest voltage, either burning off energy in resistors, or attempting to transfer that energy to the cells presently showing lower voltage. I get the impression that the schemes to transfer energy are a bit gimmicky, and not practical at EV pack size, so most cars use resistors, affecting only the higest voltage cells.


Again, this is true of all chemistries.


Agreed.


What I'm saying is that there is nothing magical and auto-balancing about LFP cells, and they need the balancing just the same. Failing to balance will impact actual range just the same as any other chemistry. It may be that LFP cells, being a somewhat simpler chemistry, are easier to manufacture with tight tolerances, but it seems to me that even if they match very well when made, they will eventually experience different environment (one end of the pack is in the sun, for example), so that balancing will always be needed.


Ah! This must be the source of the confusion. The "equalise charge" referred to above is a special over-charging stage specifically for flooded lead-acid batteries. Lead acid cells actually DO have a (slightly) magical equalising property: when you over-charge them, they boil off water from the electrolyte, but mostly the acid remains in the cell. It's easy and indeed necessary to replace the water in these cells anyway, so it's no big deal. The equalise charge is several hours at a quite high charge voltage (e.g. 15-16 V on a nominally 12 V battery), which is well above the gassing voltage for those cells (14.4 V for nominally 12 V). So this is a very crude way of balancing the individual cells in a flooded lead-acid battery. Note that in a lead-acid module, like a car starter battery or even the auxiliary battery in our MGs, there is no access to the individual cells; only to the block of (for 12 V nominal batteries) six cells in series. Lead acid cells have such a short life that for the sealed versions, which these days is most of them, they don't worry about balancing at all.

So basically the equalise charge referred to above is not the same as the equalisation process that happens at the end of charging our cars. So this advice is NOT saying that equalisation (really cell balancing) is not needed for LFP chemistry cells. It's saying that if you have the facility to over-charge your battery, don't do that for LFP, only for lead acid. In the house battery world, ternary chemistry is still fairly uncommon, so it's not even mentioned in the above. But of course, if you do happen to have the equalise charge facility, you should not use it on battery composed of ternary cells either.
Thanks for your detailed response.

I'm not sure whether everybody is up for a point by point, blow by blow discourse regarding the merits and demerits of LFP on this thread so to slightly change the pace, there is a very practical illustration of the difference between lithium-ion (LI-ION) and LFP (Li-FeP04) on bigclivedotcom YouTube channel in which he compares both sales and a very simple way. And with regard to the characteristics of the LFP at full charge compared to Li-Ion watch out for his description of where the lithium ions are in the cell in its full charge state.



Although this is a 13 1/2 minute video, the 1st 7 minutes 45 seconds covers all the bases.

I just wish the M G4 was available in the "Trophy Trim" with an LFP battery
 
Minor update- currently seeing 80kW on my mk2 ZS
I have seen more…..

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Thanks for your detailed response.

I'm not sure whether everybody is up for a point by point, blow by blow discourse regarding the merits and demerits of LFP on this thread so to slightly change the pace, there is a very practical illustration of the difference between lithium-ion (LI-ION) and LFP (Li-FeP04) on bigclivedotcom YouTube channel in which he compares both sales and a very simple way. And with regard to the characteristics of the LFP at full charge compared to Li-Ion watch out for his description of where the lithium ions are in the cell in its full charge state.



Although this is a 13 1/2 minute video, the 1st 7 minutes 45 seconds covers all the bases.

I just wish the M G4 was available in the "Trophy Trim" with an LFP battery

LFP in the MG4 would mean shorter range.
 
LFP in the MG4 would mean shorter range.
There isn't a lot in it since LFP chemistry prefers to be charged to 100% ie. 51 kWh and Li-Ion prefers to be charged up to 80% for daily use (only charging to 100% in preparation for longer road trips and monthly Equalisation Charge) meaning the 64 kWh (61 kWh useable) 80% is 51.2 kWh (64 x 80% = 51.2). Sure on the first leg of the road trip when charged from the home 7 kW wall box you'll have 61 kWh usable but once you hit your first Rapid charger the advantage is lost since LFP can take and sustain higher charge rates as a general rule. I have a MG4 Trophy on order and I am seriously reconsidering dropping the spec for an SR MG4 or ZS for the usability of the LFP
 
There isn't a lot in it since LFP chemistry prefers to be charged to 100% ie. 51 kWh and Li-Ion prefers to be charged up to 80% for daily use (only charging to 100% in preparation for longer road trips and monthly Equalisation Charge) meaning the 64 kWh (61 kWh useable) 80% is 51.2 kWh (64 x 80% = 51.2). Sure on the first leg of the road trip when charged from the home 7 kW wall box you'll have 61 kWh usable but once you hit your first Rapid charger the advantage is lost since LFP can take and sustain higher charge rates as a general rule. I have a MG4 Trophy on order and I am seriously reconsidering dropping the spec for an SR MG4 or ZS for the usability of the LFP
While it might be good practice to restrict SoC on the larger battery to 80% on a day to day purpose, there is clearly the option to charge to 100% prior to undertaking a longer journey. We have not yet seen the charge profile, but the larger battery variant does peak at 135kW which is about 20kW faster than the 51kWh variant, hence the quoted quicker time to 80% for the bigger battery model.

Horses for courses but if you rarely drive more than 180 miles in a day then the 51kWh battery would be fine. If driving more than 180 miles in a day on a fairly regular basis it makes sense to go for the larger battery. If you are regularly driving more than 300 miles, buy an efficient ICE.
 
While it might be good practice to restrict SoC on the larger battery to 80% on a day to day purpose, there is clearly the option to charge to 100% prior to undertaking a longer journey. We have not yet seen the charge profile, but the larger battery variant does peak at 135kW which is about 20kW faster than the 51kWh variant, hence the quoted quicker time to 80% for the bigger battery model.

Horses for courses but if you rarely drive more than 180 miles in a day then the 51kWh battery would be fine. If driving more than 180 miles in a day on a fairly regular basis it makes sense to go for the larger battery. If you are regularly driving more than 300 miles, buy an efficient ICE.
I don't regularly drive more than the 140 miles (the real world range of my current ZS) but I do fairly often do 500 - 700 miles or more trips in the ZS and while I'm happy to stop every couple of hours to recharge myself I would prefer that to be in my control and not of necessity for the benefit of charging the car. Also since EV adoption is out stripping the rate of Rapid and destination charging bays the flexibility of making one or two fewer refueling stops out of necessity is to be welcomed although once over 200 mile range I think you've hit the sweet spot.
 
There isn't a lot in it since LFP chemistry prefers to be charged to 100% ie. 51 kWh and Li-Ion prefers to be charged up to 80% for daily use (only charging to 100% in preparation for longer road trips and monthly Equalisation Charge) meaning the 64 kWh (61 kWh useable) 80% is 51.2 kWh (64 x 80% = 51.2). Sure on the first leg of the road trip when charged from the home 7 kW wall box you'll have 61 kWh usable but once you hit your first Rapid charger the advantage is lost since LFP can take and sustain higher charge rates as a general rule. I have a MG4 Trophy on order and I am seriously reconsidering dropping the spec for an SR MG4 or ZS for the usability of the LFP
I agree my wife has the mg4 SE SR on order also Barry, mainly because I’m trying to get her to buy an EV, and she has agree to look at it, (not sure yet who’s paying the bulk of the cost) but she as many dislikes about the car from the videos we have seen, but more dislikes on the trophy model than the SE, but her main concern is price 2.5-6 grand cheaper, for the 51 kw in the SE SR that will be fine for her, one of the major advantages in her case will be, to just be able to plug it in whenever and not having to think if she might cause damage by charging past 80% and the car will be at 100% when ever she needs it just like her phone.
She doesn’t do any long trips in her cars I do all of them, but having said that I try to keep to rules with my 5 that being, don’t charge it past 80ish unless I’m doing a longer trip the next day, and because I tend to do a longer trip about every 4-6 weeks, I also use that longer trip charging session to allow the battery to do a balance cycle, 16000 miles in with my 5SR I have had no issues on that front at all, also my 5 has about the same range 214 miles and we have been fine so far with that as after a couple of hours or so driving nowadays it us that need the recharge just as much as the car.

To own an EV today you need a few things to make it work as good as it can be.

1 a home charger of some type is very helpful.

2. A bit of forward planing and thinking, especially when going on a longer journey as to where you are going to stop to charge, and to have a plan B just in case can be helpful.

3. A bit of patience at public charging places sometimes.

And sometimes a little more time,

After driving ICE vehicles of many kinds for Over 55 years, I feel far less stressed and fresher at the end of my journeys these days in my 5 EV SR then I have ever done in a ICE vehicle for a very long time, mainly because I never do more than 150 miles now without a stop, and many times less than that, because I stop off charge the car perhaps grab a coffee and a bite to eat, and relax for 30-40 minutes.

Driving an EV has to some extent restore some of the pleasures of driving for me I do feel that sometimes, and then I think of the costs when I look at the price of fossils fuel today. And the savings I have made WoW.

BUT There is as always a downside, that being the amount of cakes and coffee being purchased could swallow up some of the savings, so I have said to the wife, where that big flask we had once back in the day you need to dig it out my love and she agreed.

Now back to working on her and the Mg4 roll on test drive.
Les.
 
to just be able to plug it in whenever and not having to think if she might cause damage by charging past 80% and the car will be at 100% when ever she needs it just like her phone.
I am fairly geeky and like having the "ideal solution", but after five years of having a LEAF in the household I'm also getting a bit bored of charging to an exact level to maximise battery life but change it to suit longer trips. The idea of an LFP battery in an SR that I can just let sit at 100% like a phone is becoming appealing.
 
There isn't a lot in it since LFP chemistry prefers to be charged to 100% ie. 51 kWh and Li-Ion prefers to be charged up to 80% for daily use (only charging to 100% in preparation for longer road trips and monthly Equalisation Charge) meaning the 64 kWh (61 kWh useable) 80% is 51.2 kWh (64 x 80% = 51.2). Sure on the first leg of the road trip when charged from the home 7 kW wall box you'll have 61 kWh usable but once you hit your first Rapid charger the advantage is lost since LFP can take and sustain higher charge rates as a general rule. I have a MG4 Trophy on order and I am seriously reconsidering dropping the spec for an SR MG4 or ZS for the usability of the LFP
I am currently on around trip to Norwich from Forest of Dean. 480 miles. One stop for charging on a Tesla Charger. The SR version would be stopping a lot more. I often do long journeys and the SR absolutely does not work for me. I’ve tried short range BEVs and the faff of having to stop because the car needs it, not me, is not worth the hassle. I have an EV that I can treat no differently when driving than I do my ICE cars.
 
I am fairly geeky and like having the "ideal solution", but after five years of having a LEAF in the household I'm also getting a bit bored of charging to an exact level to maximise battery life but change it to suit longer trips. The idea of an LFP battery in an SR that I can just let sit at 100% like a phone is becoming appealing.
You've hit the nail on the head. Like you, I want just to plug in and know that in the morning the default Octopus Go 4 hours has charged my car to its full-range potential (even if it is less than I could have had with a larger battery) and know that the battery is not going to be damaged in any way. This is an ideal scenario for people transferring from ICE cars to EV too.
 
I agree my wife has the mg4 SE SR on order also Barry, mainly because I’m trying to get her to buy an EV, and she has agree to look at it, (not sure yet who’s paying the bulk of the cost) but she as many dislikes about the car from the videos we have seen, but more dislikes on the trophy model than the SE, but her main concern is price 2.5-6 grand cheaper, for the 51 kw in the SE SR that will be fine for her, one of the major advantages in her case will be, to just be able to plug it in whenever and not having to think if she might cause damage by charging past 80% and the car will be at 100% when ever she needs it just like her phone.
She doesn’t do any long trips in her cars I do all of them, but having said that I try to keep to rules with my 5 that being, don’t charge it past 80ish unless I’m doing a longer trip the next day, and because I tend to do a longer trip about every 4-6 weeks, I also use that longer trip charging session to allow the battery to do a balance cycle, 16000 miles in with my 5SR I have had no issues on that front at all, also my 5 has about the same range 214 miles and we have been fine so far with that as after a couple of hours or so driving nowadays it us that need the recharge just as much as the car.

To own an EV today you need a few things to make it work as good as it can be.

1 a home charger of some type is very helpful.

2. A bit of forward planing and thinking, especially when going on a longer journey as to where you are going to stop to charge, and to have a plan B just in case can be helpful.

3. A bit of patience at public charging places sometimes.

And sometimes a little more time,

After driving ICE vehicles of many kinds for Over 55 years, I feel far less stressed and fresher at the end of my journeys these days in my 5 EV SR then I have ever done in a ICE vehicle for a very long time, mainly because I never do more than 150 miles now without a stop, and many times less than that, because I stop off charge the car perhaps grab a coffee and a bite to eat, and relax for 30-40 minutes.

Driving an EV has to some extent restore some of the pleasures of driving for me I do feel that sometimes, and then I think of the costs when I look at the price of fossils fuel today. And the savings I have made WoW.

BUT There is as always a downside, that being the amount of cakes and coffee being purchased could swallow up some of the savings, so I have said to the wife, where that big flask we had once back in the day you need to dig it out my love and she agreed.

Now back to working on her and the Mg4 roll on test drive.
Les.
Very well put Les.
 
Doesn't seem to be bothering Tesla as they switch to LFP for all but their highest performance models
The newest tesla lfp battery looses over a 1/4 of its range in winter at about 28% reduction so mg could be worse?
 
You've hit the nail on the head. Like you, I want just to plug in and know that in the morning the default Octopus Go 4 hours has charged my car to its full-range potential (even if it is less than I could have had with a larger battery) and know that the battery is not going to be damaged in any way. This is an ideal scenario for people transferring from ICE cars to EV too.

Charging the LR version of the ZS EV to an indicated 100% is NOT going to damage the battery!

A LFP battery is a cheaper, heavier and less efficient battery that an NMC battery. Tesla use them to keep the cost of their tm3 and tmY down - though they are still stupidly expensive.

An NMC battery is good for at least 2000 charge cycles and maintaining 80% of its original capacity. An LFP battery will be good for at least 3000 charge cycles. To get that into perspective, the LR version of the MG ZS EV has a battery that will last around 400,000 miles while maintaining 80% of its original capacity. The SR version would be good for around 600,000 miles.

The NMC battery can get improved life by opportunistic charging, something not possible with the LFP due to it NEEDING to be charged to 100% SOC for the BMS to have any hope of correctly recognising it’s charge state.

In either version the battery will probably outlive the rest of the car. Worrying about the battery in a modern BEV is not something to be concerned about.

Buy the version of the car that suits your requirements. If you don’t drive far, then the SR will probably suit your needs.

Remember that you will get around 20% to 30% less range in the winter compared to the summer.

When on a long run remember that you only charge to 80% and look for a charger when you are down to around 20%. The charge curve of the LR ZS EV means that charging to 85% SOC is fine.
 
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