V2L Test. 7kW output...

[Mg4forluxury]

Please see attached - we've done both AC & DC coupling - currently we're in off grid mode - and awating DNO commisioning given the new rules in Sept 2022 (for the UK - for our system - ENA Type Test Register

Photos attached of our decomisioned system (but the MG4 does charge the ESS battery system albeit at a selected 1KW only. )

Thank you for your comment and photos. Unfortunately, it is difficult for me to form a picture of how your setup can be applied in my situation. I miss the schematic process from the V2L vcan MG to the Solar inverter.
I understand that you also use an ATS i.c.m. a capacity limiter. (set threshold value to purchase energy).
A schematic representation of your setup, showing the components used, would be of great help.
I understand that this may be asking too much, but it's nice to hear that there are other solutions for using the MG4 V2L as a "home battery on wheels"

 

[Tig170]

no worries - give me a day or two to digest, and i'll get back to you. At the end of the day we dont want any mishaps.

 

[Mg4forluxury]

no worries - give me a day or two to digest, and i'll get back to you. At the end of the day we dont want any mishaps.

Thank you very much and super that you want to help me (and maybe other V2L lovers) out.
I wait for your new reply. Tomorrow it is for me a great day. I will be the owner off a new MG4

 

[charlie bravo]

Both myself and my neighbour have our MG4s wired to our household consumer units to run the house directly from V2L.

We were told the MG4 output only 2.2Kw,

Our old Kia EV6 output 3.5Kw

Today we decided to push them as far as we could..

With a meter on the input, we ran 2x 600w IR Heating Panels f+ 1x400w IR Heating panel for 1.6kw

At the same time boiling a 2.5Kw Kettle and running a 2Kw Induction Cooker Hob

General Load of Lights TVs and Computers plus other ancillaries 800w


Gave 6.9 Kw output. ran that stable with no issues, threw on a toaster and it kicked out and shut down, started up again as soon as the toaster load was removed.

So it seems the MG4 is happy with a 7Kw output. Much much better than expected. Was expecting no more 3.5 max

Also let me say this test was done with a proper type 2 V2L adaptor wired up with 6mm cable and direct back to the house with 6mm armoured cable. Please dont try and pull more than a couple of Kw from those Ebay Plug in type2 to3 pin adaptors.

Hi stageshoot, very interested, looking at Toms shed on you tube and how he wired that is good,
But l have you got solar panels feeding back to your consumer unit please

 

[Aussi55]

Hi,

This looks very interesting and thanks for taking the time to share.

I have solar and a Tesla powerwall. I was wondering if the V2L could be connected to the solar input on the backup gateway. This allows for input from solar and other micro generation at 240v.

If it were possible that would really help keep the house running.

Would anyone know more about this?

 

[charlie bravo]

Hi guys since reading this thread I have been thinking how I can create a similar setup for my house as the original poster using V2L to supply my entire house. Stageshoot appears to have a TT earring system where as I have a TNCS earthing system. My house is approx 25 years old and the consumer unit is a split type with main switch controling all circuits and a 30ma RCD protecting about half the circuits (sockets etc…).

installing a 100A change over switch in the tails from the meter to the consumer unit and an additional time delayed 100A RCD 100mA to protect the entire instalation is no problem. The earth wire from the car would be connected to the earth terminal in the changeover switch and hence to the main earthing terminal of the house at the cutout.

However, as I am on TNCS do I leave my main earthing conductor from the Consumer unit connected to the Neutral at the cutout? One one hand the TNCS combined neutral and Earth is a far better return path to earth where current would only flow in the event of a fault in my house. The fault current would be restricted to a maximum of 100mA and then the main RCD would trip. I suppose I could make the main RCD 30mA non time delayed and restrict fault currents even further.

Or

Do I convert the earthing system to a TT system and disconnect the house from the TNCS system at the cutout? This has the advantage that no fault currents would flow along the DNO’s neutral wire but the path to earth would be far higher resistance. Although it does provide protection against any PEN faults even though these are very rare.

Or

Do I leave the TNCS earthing connected and install an additional earthing rod to the main earthing terminal as an additional path to earth? there Is no reason why I cannot do this as many houses converted to TNCS leave the old main earth rods connected. Any fault current would naturally flow along the low resistance PEN conductor but in the event of a PEN fault there is an alternative path back to earth via the earth rod.

I did consider switching the main earth conductor in the changeover switch (would have to be 3 pole) so the installation switches between TNCS (when on main supply) to TT (when on car supply) but the cross sectional area of the main earthing conductor would not be maintained through the changeover switch.

I’m struggling to figure out the correct way to go here. I want to have the right fault protection in my house when connected to mains and don’t want to push current down the DNO’s cables if they has engineers working on them and think they are isolated.

Have I missed something anything that I would be considering?

any thoughts would be gratefully received.

Dean

Hi l am in a bungalow with attached garage, thinking of putting in a complete new socket ring for the trophy, using them for heating cooking ect

 

[DeMille]

Interesting thread and something I have been working on with my MG4. So this is what I have found so far hope it helps someone:-
a) when connecting the V2L connector (home made one) and selecting discharging in the car I get 226v between live and neutral.
b) measuring L to E voltage I get 186v
c) measuring N to E voltage I get 28v (will be an Inverter output but a behaving like a centre tapped transformer output)
d) the earth is not connected to the chassis of the car (no continuity)
e) there is no connection to ground from the earth output from the car (obviously as only 4 rubber tyres between the car and ground)
f) I can connect the earth from the car to an earth rod to give a ground connection. however this does not connect neutral to the earth/ground that is needed to operate a an RCD.
g) I have connected the live, neutral and earth from the car V2L to my consumer unit and powered my entire house from the car. tested all appliances PC, tv, oven, boiler etc… and all worked.
h) testing the connections in the house when powered from V2L provides some unacceptable results. As the earth is not connected to the neutral at the source sockets can show as reverse polarity, missing earth, RCD’s do not operate under fault conditions.
I) Connecting the earth to an earth rod at the source does not help And I get the same results.
J) the problem is that the neutral needs to be bonded to the earth at source just like a normal house TN-C-S system. This would provide the right return paths via the earth and fix the system to earth and not have a floating system.
k) I have tried connecting earth and neutral together at the output of the V2L connector to simulate a TN-C-S system and the car shuts down the discharge as it sees the connection as a fault.

So I can power my house from the V2L connector but not safely with the right level of protection I would want. The car prevents me creating a safe system as it shuts down the discharge if earth is connected to neutral.

I got this far if anyone else can come up with a safe way of doing this I’m all ears.

Dean

Hi Dean,

Thanks for the explanation. As I understand it now, it is actually impossible to use the V2l output as a backup for any grounded device. An earthed power strip will therefore always remain floating, while there is plenty of experimentation with the MG ZS, MG4, MG5 Ioniq 5 and EV6 VL application i.c.m. several household appliances. In my house (1976) most of the wall sockets are ungrounded. Of course, the WCDs in the kitchen, bathroom and attic (Central heating) are earthed. In the living room, the TV and lighting run without grounding. In my case I would only like to run the fridge and freezer on the V2L.
Actually, I have created an isolated group of animals, as it were, coupled with the MG4, like the example of Tom's V2L solution.


My situation is similar to Ton's. I switch off the entire phase of the GRID and connect it, as it were, to the MG4 with the Type 2 V2L connection. Do I understand correctly that the solution created by Tom (and many others on the internet) is NOT justified ??

Is there no single solution to use the V2L safely?

normally v2L is used with a transfer switch for switching between grid or V2L. if the GRID is a TT system the N is earthed at the transformer station. One does need an earthed N for PCB to work. In TT systemsThe home installation must have a PE pin and the N is not connected to PE. The only thing one has to provide for using V2L and keep PCB working is an N connected to earth. One can not use a floating system in a home because if there is a fault in a device this fault can transfer to other divices plugged in the same system How this is done using a floating emergency generator?

Hello MG Lovers,
I am new to this forum and was looking for supporters regarding the possibilities of connecting my MG4 as a home battery on wheels to "part" of my home. My electrical installation consists of 3 phase, each of which is fused to the GRID with a 25 A / 230V AC main fuse. The entire electrical installation of the house is divided into large consumers such as "hot water instantaneous water heater", induction hob, 2 air conditioning units, etc.
1 phase is specially equipped for: refrigerator, freezer, lighting and a number of primary sockets throughout the house.
This phase is "entirely" disconnected from the GRID from the moment the MG4 is connected.
This is done by an Automatic Transfer Switch (ATS) which switches the "Neutral and Life".
I use a Zappi to load the MG4 Trophy (In the Netherlands MG4 Luxury.
A second Type 2 plug is connected to the ATS. All earthed sockets remain connected to the "standard" earthing of the house and are not switched. That way there is no "floating grounding"
It is a test set-up and I would appreciate further developing this concept of "optimally safe".
There are of course a number of disadvantages associated with this device.
There must be a manual switch between the Zappi (charging) and the V2L home situation.View attachment 17368View attachment 17369

In this setup the EV is used as back-up power for the grid. In my setup V2L is connected to the main and the grid to the emergency. if I plug in V2L it is automatically connected, if I plug out the grid takes over.

 

[Mg4forluxury]

In this setup the EV is used as back-up power for the grid. In my setup V2L is connected to the main and the grid to the emergency. if I plug in V2L it is automatically connected, if I plug out the grid takes over.

That is the same configuration with me.The ATS senses the 230V input of the MG4 and switch off the Grid automatically. I choose to make a own configuration of my electricity network in mij home situation and bundeled the essential users to One phase of my 3 phase home supply.

Hi l am in a bungalow with attached garage, thinking of putting in a complete new socket ring for the trophy, using them for heating cooking ect

I did the same Charlie Bravo. I putted the essential sockets and lightning to a own seat of automatic fuses in One fase. I secured this groups to a maximal power use of 2500 watt, so they cannot damage the inverter of my MG4. When the totale power use exceed this it wil automatcaly with to the GRID

normally v2L is used with a transfer switch for switching between grid or V2L. if the GRID is a TT system the N is earthed at the transformer station. One does need an earthed N for PCB to work. In TT systemsThe home installation must have a PE pin and the N is not connected to PE. The only thing one has to provide for using V2L and keep PCB working is an N connected to earth. One can not use a floating system in a home because if there is a fault in a device this fault can transfer to other divices plugged in the same system How this is done using a floating emergency generator?

I find it also difficult to find the right solution. I don't know if it is a problem to disconnect the earth wire from the Main GRID installation of the house. Sorry that I probably not use the right words for the proper solution. I am not a engineer and I am very happy with all the input.
I hope there is a solution top use V2L of the MG without disconnecting all the "earth wires" of the home power plugs. So when I connect only the "N)eutral(Blue) and "L"ive(brown) wires to the isolates sockets (and lights) it should be (I hope so) no problem. The earth wire of the fridge will be alway connected to the east of the electrical system of the house.

 

[DeMille]

if one uses an all in one solar hybrid inverter, most have an internal ATS for switching between grid mode and off grid mode ( back up mode) Some have a GEN port which can be configured. Advanced settings "Island mode". In Island mode the N is bound, when on grid it is not and the signal can be activated or deactivated. I think this is done to make it possible to use generators which are not N bounded ( most portable generators) The Inverter shell must be grounded. In a TT system I think it is best to use a seperate grounding pin having a very low impedance. In such configuration the EV can be plugged in as it was a generator. The GEN port can be configured to limit the load at a set point.
To connect V2L using only an ATS switching between grid and V2L one may provide a bounded N the same way, by connecting the N of the ATS connection with a separate ground pin.
But what happens in the car if v2L is connected to an N bounded system as it is made to power double isolated devises?
Those who connect V2L just using an ATS eveything will work, but PCB for sure will not function. As the car is not grounded and it is a floating system, will overload C/B protecting the v2L connection trip if a short curcuit occurs between the car body and v2L? What if we ground the EV?
Using a floating generator without the shell is grounded the overload protection will not trip in case of a short circuit with the shell, the shell must be grounded for the CB to work.
In a TT system the home is properly grounded and I do not expect problems inside the house exempt for PCB not working. And we have lived for decades without PCB protection.

 

[Mg4forluxury]

if one uses an all in one solar hybrid inverter, most have an internal ATS for switching between grid mode and off grid mode ( back up mode) Some have a GEN port which can be configured. Advanced settings "Island mode". In Island mode the N is bound, when on grid it is not and the signal can be activated or deactivated. I think this is done to make it possible to use generators which are not N bounded ( most portable generators) The Inverter shell must be grounded. In a TT system I think it is best to use a seperate grounding pin having a very low impedance. In such configuration the EV can be plugged in as it was a generator. The GEN port can be configured to limit the load at a set point.
To connect V2L using only an ATS switching between grid and V2L one may provide a bounded N the same way, by connecting the N of the ATS connection with a separate ground pin.
But what happens in the car if v2L is connected to an N bounded system as it is made to power double isolated devises?
Those who connect V2L just using an ATS eveything will work, but PCB for sure will not function. As the car is not grounded and it is a floating system, will overload C/B protecting the v2L connection trip if a short curcuit occurs between the car body and v2L? What if we ground the EV?
Using a floating generator without the shell is grounded the overload protection will not trip in case of a short circuit with the shell, the shell must be grounded for the CB to work.
In a TT system the home is properly grounded and I do not expect problems inside the house exempt for PCB not working. And we have lived for decades without PCB protection.

Super, Thank you for your reaction. Do you think there is a problem when I connect the earth wire (green/yellow) of the V2L cable to the central earth of the TT-house wiring ?
Will that work ?
Is that a problem for the MG4 or is it better NOT to connect the floating earth wire of the MG4 to the house earth wiring.
Thank you for your reaction and help.

 

[siteguru]

I don't think it's a problem for the MG4 - I think it's a problem for anyone working on the distribution network who thinks the line is safe. (i.e. why you might have a power cut in the first place). @Ayoull can explain this far better than I can.

 

[Ayoull]

All generation equipment (which battery storage is classed as) unless it has been approved for use in parallel to the DNO network during a loss of mains situation has to isolate and de-energise itself within 30sec of loss of power, and is not allowed to automatically re-energise until power is restored for atleast 30sec.

This to prevent injury to any craft staff working on the network and also to prevent what is called fault in feed, as every generator on the network contributes to network fault levels.

 

[DeMille]

I don't think it's a problem for the MG4 - I think it's a problem for anyone working on the distribution network who thinks the line is safe. (i.e. why you might have a power cut in the first place). @Ayoull can explain this far better than I can.

if connecting the MG to an N bound distribution system is not a problem for the MG, then all PCB and CB in a TT system will work normally. What should be the risk?
The bounded N of the grid can easily be replaced with a PE bounded N coming from the EV v2L connection, the same way a home battery back up system is set up.
I do not have an MG yet and can not test it. I have lived in a home without PE in the sockets and without PCB for decades and the grid was TT. Never had any problems. Now I have a new distribution panel with PCB because I have installed Solar panels and have a DYE all in one hybrid inverter, wihch makes it possible to connect any energy source, AC or DC. if the grid fails my solar panels still will pwr my home.
If I buy an EV for sure it will be one having V2L

Forth hand wash and just noticed a hole cut in nearside of front plastic grill, 4 grooves in from right. Any ideas?

Here you go.

 

[DeMille]

All generation equipment (which battery storage is classed as) unless it has been approved for use in parallel to the DNO network during a loss of mains situation has to isolate and de-energise itself within 30sec of loss of power, and is not allowed to automatically re-energise until power is restored for atleast 30sec.

This to prevent injury to any craft staff working on the network and also to prevent what is called fault in feed, as every generator on the network contributes to network fault levels.

In Belgium an ATS must have a transfer time of minimal 50 ms. In an island setup everything is isolated from the utility.

 

[Ayoull]

In Belgium an ATS must have a transfer time of minimal 50 ms. In an island setup everything is isolated from the utility.

Except it's not, as any earth electrode in the ground causes a EPR (Earth potential rise) essentially if a fault occurs on your generator, and it puts that fault down to earth generally any piece of metal within 2-5m dependant on the soil resistivity will experience a voltage rise.

Alot of cables in the UK are still PILC essentially lead sheathed cables where the lead acts as a giant electrode, as the paper insulation covered in bitumen actually conducts, it just prevents water ingress.

So it's extremely hard to be the required distance away from a DNO earth or piece of metal that isn't connected to a DNO earth. And the only way to prove this is with RENA type earthing studies which are usually in the region of £10-30k as require onsite resistance measurements of the ground and computer modelling.

And any generation or battery system that is being connected to a DNO served property has to be approved by the DNO to ensure you're not going to endanger anyone working on the network or affect anyone else's supply with your non-type tested not intended usage type system.

 

[Ayoull]

Except it's not, as any earth electrode in the ground causes a EPR (Earth potential rise) essentially if a fault occurs on your generator, and it puts that fault down to earth generally any piece of metal within 2-5m dependant on the soil resistivity will experience a voltage rise.

Alot of cables in the UK are still PILC essentially lead sheathed cables where the lead acts as a giant electrode, as the paper insulation covered in bitumen actually conducts, it just prevents water ingress.

So it's extremely hard to be the required distance away from a DNO earth or piece of metal that isn't connected to a DNO earth. And the only way to prove this is with RENA type earthing studies which are usually in the region of £10-30k as require onsite resistance measurements of the ground and computer modelling.

And any generation or battery system that is being connected to a DNO served property has to be approved by the DNO to ensure you're not going to endanger anyone working on the network or affect anyone else's supply with your non-type tested not intended usage type system.

One way to avoid alot of this but is expensive is to look at implementing an IT earthing system utilising a high resistance earth path 1.5kOhms or more but then your home won't comply with BS7671 in the UK as IT is only permissible under very strict criteria.

And your home insurance would most likely be invalid

 

[DeMille]

Except it's not, as any earth electrode in the ground causes a EPR (Earth potential rise) essentially if a fault occurs on your generator, and it puts that fault down to earth generally any piece of metal within 2-5m dependant on the soil resistivity will experience a voltage rise.

Alot of cables in the UK are still PILC essentially lead sheathed cables where the lead acts as a giant electrode, as the paper insulation covered in bitumen actually conducts, it just prevents water ingress.

So it's extremely hard to be the required distance away from a DNO earth or piece of metal that isn't connected to a DNO earth. And the only way to prove this is with RENA type earthing studies which are usually in the region of £10-30k as require onsite resistance measurements of the ground and computer modelling.

And any generation or battery system that is being connected to a DNO served property has to be approved by the DNO to ensure you're not going to endanger anyone working on the network or affect anyone else's supply with your non-type tested not intended usage type system.

Ok. but what is the problem? It is the normal setup of a TT system .
In a TT system metal parts in the home should be interconnected and bounded to the home PE. In a TT home system PE earth must have a very low impedance. The N is bounded to earth at the utility transformer of the grid.. Using the TT principle system the home earth is picked up by the grid N ground via earth. Every home system connected to the transformer has its own seperated PE grounding. if I add my own N to PE bound only if disconnected from the grid, what should be the problem for me or my neighbours? V2L is always and only used in island mode .
In Belgium home batteries ( battery pack with incorporated inverter) used in parallel with the distribution net must be licenced and approved by Synergrid. But it are not the batteries , it is the inverter build in which must be approved for parallel use. Batteries used in series by using an all in one inverter or connected via an ATS or MTS of coarse must not be approved for being connected with the grid. It depends on the fact if the batt inverter is for parallel use and is able to synchronise or is made for to be used in series or stand allone ( island mode or and back -up) The big difference between both setup is the price/KWH batt storage.
In TT systems problems with PCB may occur if working in "island mode" or "off grid." Modern hybrid inverters have an internal N bound for back up or Island mode but not all" all in one" inverters and battery inverters have this option. Often the manual does not explain a thing about this, so one has to check it.
Using V2L one may be sure there is no N bound within the inverter and it can be used in series with an all in one inverter or as stand alone using an ATS. So, if PCB have to work properly an N to PE bound must be added for using V2L to pwr a TT home system. If it is used to charge a home battery system it does not matter.
In what way V2L as an energy source is different from AC coming from a home batt back-up system?

 

[DeMille]

One way to avoid alot of this but is expensive is to look at implementing an IT earthing system utilising a high resistance earth path 1.5kOhms or more but then your home won't comply with BS7671 in the UK as IT is only permissible under very strict criteria.

And your home insurance would most likely be invalid

In fact there is not a lot to avoid; It is about connecting one wire more or not.

 

[Ayoull]

In what way V2L as an energy source is different from AC coming from a home batt back-up system?

In that a home battery system in the UK has to be ENA approved and type tested to ensure it functions within the limits imposed by Engineering recommendations G99 and G100.

V2L does not meet these requirements at all, V2G does where implemented on Chademo bidirectional chargers.

 

[Mg4forluxury]

I hope there is also a way in thinking in Solutions and not onlusten in problemen and rules for The User of V2L. I also am not a fan to take dangerous risks but I see a lot of doom scenario’s in the solutions. I hope there is a more positive way to make V2L happen in a simpel setting without all the dangerous solutions that could be or might happen if…….

It is a fact that there are more situations like woorden ships in the water with no Earth connections. They also Connect to The grid with simpel installations.